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just wondering why more young dogs are not being entered

11K views 69 replies 47 participants last post by  fishduck 
#1 ·
I have an upcoming judge's assignment that seems to be kinda small in the Junior and Senior entries. I feel bad for a club because it costs them room and gas and meals regardless of the number of entries. I know all who have Master dogs are trying to qualify for the MN in SC next year but let's support the lower stakes as well....If the entries remain small I can guarantee that all who are entered will have a good time....To me good dog work and FUN is what these games are all about along with getting new people involved.
 
#44 ·
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the training resources available to first time trainers with their first dogs. A newbie in 2014 has a tremendous amount of resources available that 15-20 years ago just wasn't there. There are plenty of affordable, and effective training methods on the market. Combine that with Youtube, RTF, remote launchers, group networking, access to well bred dogs all over the USA, etc...... It's a least reasonable to think that more people are getting to "higher" levels of training QUICKER than they were a few years ago. 'Cause 20 years ago, it was a newspaper Lab, copy of Waterdog and a canvas bumper for a LOT of people!

So I don't think it's just the more experienced folks skipping JH/SH, but also a larger portion of the first timers, as their dogs are simply better than they were 20 years ago. The learning curve (dog and trainer) is a lot steeper today!
 
#45 ·
One big change I have noticed in the HT game since they started is the number of "Pro" trainers today. When hunt tests first started it was almost all amateur trainers with their hunting dogs. It was mentioned earlier that it is not worth paying a pro to run in the Jr./Sr. and that is part of why there are fewer dogs in the lower levels. If people are having a pro train their dogs and run them the lower stakes are not worth the $$ because they don't count toward a title - at least in AKC. If the owner handled their dog then it would be worth running just for experience. If a pro has 10 dogs on their truck that could be 10 less dogs in the lower stakes that in the old days would have been there with their owners and running.
 
#46 ·
As a newcomer to the hunt test game, I ran Juniors for the sake of learning the game and how dogs handle in the hunt test atmosphere. It was more training for myself than the dog. IMHO, Juniors can create some bad habits that are tough to break (i.e. creeping, bad obedience, cheating on marks, etc.). My YLM went 4 for 4 on his tests, but he cheated on a couple marks (and the last one almost made us fail the test) and it has been tough to fix as I am now training for seniors. Looking back on it, if I were to purchase another pup tomorrow, I don't think that I would run him through Juniors.

I would love to see the AKC change the rules and require the handlers to bring the dog to the line off lead. It will probably never happen, but it is one major change that would be beneficial to both the handler and the dog in preparing them for the next level.
 
#50 · (Edited)
My 2 points re wanting to get more entries in beginning stakes...
*It is definitely important to have 2 JH or SH tests on the weekend, most aren't going to travel and spend $ when it could be all over the very first time to the line if there is only one day of testing.
*A good reason you see more lower level HRC entries than AKC, is at least in HRC your day is not over if you fail the first time at the line. Running a started dog if I fail my land marks, getting a chance to come back and run the water marks even if I can't pass that day, gives me a better experience and more bang for my buck. I've seen people drive right off after their junior dog fails in the morning. I wonder how many come back compared to spending the entire day at HRC test and getting more hooked into the game?
 
#52 · (Edited)
I don't see enough bang for the buck in JH or SH; a SH only takes away one test in MH. If your doing it for line-time cool but if you fail, you could theoretically pay $$ for one series, one bird, one whatever, then your on your way home (why would you stay unless there's another test the next day) (thus you don't stay for the BBQ, and you don't enjoy the entire experience). This possibility makes traveling for anything but a back to back JH or SH, not-cost effective. Used to do it to see where a dog was, but I can do that in HRC or NAHRA, for a lower fee, have more fun, and my points count for the dogs higher titles. If I fail the dog still gets the entire test for the $$ if I choose (they've even done this in a few of the lower NAHRA stakes I've ran). People don't like driving paying gas, expense and entry, without a guarantee on their money (I'm not talking a guaranteed pass, but a guarantee on the complete experience). Also because EE keeps track of your records for AKC, it's out there for anyone to track, where-as in the other tests it's untraceable (except to the owner). Thus It makes more since to test your wings in another venue, then keep your record straight in AKC, might as well just go straight MH (5MH tests is more cost-effective than 5SH &4MH) .

Want to keep the JH & SH people around and get them hooked, easy when you have a low entries in a stake in JH/SH, don't do call-backs, or do them and then give everyone the opportunity to run the other series after those who are still playing. As a Judge sit a bit, perhaps be happy, and not in a hurry, why do we need to be done early? everyone's already booked the whole day. Give them a little feed-back on their dogs (no need to keep books). There's no rule saying you can't, and it keeps handlers there for the raffle & BBQ, keeps them interacting, shows them that they are important and not just entries/$$ so the club can host a MH test. When people feel improtant, not just a check, and they have a good time, often times they come back ;).
 
#53 ·
There are two major reasons why numbers are down in JH and SH.

The first is the economy. There is plain and simply less disposable income in most homes than there was 10 years ago.

The second is a larger problem, a cultural shift in the under thirty folks. Their interests do not lie in do-it-yourself projects like dog training. If they want a well trained dog they are much more likely to hire somebody to train the dog for them rather than undertaking the process themselves. More than half the dogs in the Junior test I judged yesterday were trained and handled by Professional Trainers.
 
#57 ·
As a person who has been involved with dogs for 10 years and being being 31 years old, I think the second problem you present is sweeping generalization that couldn't be more false. 1/2 of the people that were in the retriever club when I joined were, just like me, still in college. And all trained their own dog. In fact, I only know one person under 30 that has ever sent their dog to a pro. Most of the folks under 30 don't have enough disposable income to be able to pay a pro. Throw in a couple kids with day care/ pre-school expenses and a lot can't afford a well bred dog and training equipment, thus they have to join clubs and partners.

When I got into the dog world, I was very blessed to have very experience handlers and trainers in East Texas that wanted to share their time and knowledge with a rookie like me. Those men and women, along with a handful of judges, are what made me want to continue to pursue the hunt tests. AWESOME PEOPLE. In my continued pursuit, I found what they had really been teaching me and why the majority of us play this game; the bond that truly represents a man and his best friend.

We all know how much time and money it takes to train a dog to properly compete in hunt test or field trials. I remember how frustrating it was not to know people who would let me use their land, not to have enough money to buy training equipment or videos and not having the knowledge to make sure I wasn't "messing" my dog up. But I wanted to learn and would throw birds, plant blinds, load wingers, etc. all day just to make sure I would get invited back. Thankfully, I did.

By the time I had the knowledge and was making enough money to buy those things and new the people that would let me use their ground, I was working 40,50, 60 hours a week and didn't have the time I had when I was in college...Then I had a kid...then another one...

My point to this is, we've got to make sure that we're doing our fair share of recruiting and getting the word out to folks that can move our hobby/sport in the right direction. Make sure we go out of the way to welcome the folks at the Junior/Senior level and see how we can help. This is a tough sport to get youth involved in and keep them involved because if the parent isn't involved and will allow dogs, then the kid is just SOL. Plus how many kids do we know that would rather spend the weekend with a bunch of adults and dogs instead of their friends at a baseball or basketball tournament...or chasing girls/boys?

A wise man once told me, "So you want to get into retrievers, huh? You might want to look into cocaine. It's a cheaper habit and for the most part, the women are hotter."

I don't think we can pinpoint why the numbers are down. I know when I was running junior and senior tests, I wouldn't even consider running a test unless they had double junior/senior tests offered. I'm not going to wake up at 4 a.m. and drive 4 hours one way, spend $60 to enter and $200 in fuel for one $3.50 ribbon, but I would for two... I got the same thrill training 10 minutes from the house. The real thrill for me was cold December and January mornings...

The junior and senior level tests were great for my experience as a handler. I'm convinced my dog never failed a test; I'm the one that failed. He could do the work, but I was the one that crapped the bed. That being said, I don't know that I'd run those levels again with my second dog that is now 15 weeks old. I'm much more confident in my ability as a trainer and handler now than I was then. I don't know that I see the benefit in it for us at this point.
 
#55 ·
Shawn I remember that test very well. No rush and time for judges to interact with handlers ,especially newbies,. I think of that test every time I see a post of yours.........job well done my friend.
 
#61 ·
I think that somehow the word has to get out to the hunters. I ran 4 Jr tests in the spring. I would guess that less than 50% of the dogs entered were going to be used as hunting dogs. There was only 1 guy under 30 and he was the one that pointed that out to me... My buddy (who convinced me to get a lab) is a waterfowl junkie. He guided for 20+ years with some incredible meat dogs and had never heard of a hunt test. There has to be a way to get hunters involved.
 
#62 ·
As for jr. Tests developing bad habits, that should not happen. You have the ability to restrain your dog on the line and you should, even if you think your dog is steady. Why risk letting them creep or break? Why bring a young pup to the line off lead and risk them getting out of control? Use the rules to teach your dog control on the line and how to behave in a test situation. Unless you just want to show off that you have a steady dog or running an older dog that has already been steadied there is no need to push it in that situation. Cheating should not be an issue if the judges know what they are doing. jr tests should be straightforward, black and white marking tests. The unprepared or poorly trained dogs will eliminate themselves. If your pup isn't doing the job pick them up, thank the judges and go home and train.
 
#63 ·
Excellent point Hambone. I use lower levels as a training tool not an excuse for development of bad habits to skip to Master. Though....back to money....that may be the excuse in the future.
 
#65 ·
I train my dogs for hunting. And if you are a duck hunter using the hunt tests for validating the training level and getting a dog used to hunting really works. Granted you still have to handle and not hunt on the first hunt or two with your dog, but after that...they are good duck dogs for a lifetime. I only run up through the SH levels....especially now that MH has many limited stakes...! My current girl will be running her first SH test in Aug..Sept. She will be ready to go come hunting season in November.....cannot wait for that!
 
#69 ·
A lot of people seem to run their females in juniors just to get a JH title to make it appealing for breeding. I don't care about started test in UKC. I've run several and a few of the test of 2 land marks and 2 water marks still didn't add up to 100 yards with all 4 marks combined. My son throws a shot put further than some of the marks in started.
 
#70 ·
Most issues caused at tests trials stem from the dog or handler becoming excited & riding the adrenaline wave. Much can be gained by the handler in the lower stakes learning to control the rush. Dogs get excited and young dogs especially become basket cases. The dog learns standards are relaxed on game day. Even picking up the dog may have no effect. Wait a year & the dog matures and isn't overwhelmed by the stimulation. IMHO Jr/Sr are very good for the handler but not always beneficial for a dog if MH is the goal. So you see experienced handlers skip these stakes.

We need the newcomers energy to keep the old guard from burning out. Their excitement is infectious and reminds some of the jaded why they play the games. Let's not inflate the standard & discourage these newcomers.
 
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