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Thread: Marijuana legality

  1. #11
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I believe it should stay illegal. I believe alcohol and tobacco also shouldnt be legal.
    Mother died of lung cancer.
    Close family friend is a burn out, and unable to function in society.
    First wife alcoholic

    The use of these substances by adults is a horrible example to set for our kids..its cost to our society, and erosion of our moral values.

    Heres what I believe about addiction
    (P.S. I have walked the walk.This is only my opinion. It is not my place to judge anyone..)

    ADDICTION
    DSM-IV describes drug dependence as the compulsive regular use of a substance, despite ONGOING negative consequences. Addiction symptoms include all of those listed above for abuse, plus tolerance (the need for a higher dose to get the same effect), withdrawal symptoms (when the drug is stopped) and cravings.
    Some drugs are very physically and psychologically addictive and have obvious, terrible withdrawal symptoms. These are easy to identify, such as heroin, barbiturates or alcohol. Others like marijuana are psychologically addictive, and the withdrawal includes psychological symptoms like anxiety, mood swings and depression. These are harder to identify, leading to the question of whether they are really related to withdrawal versus a “I miss my pot” phenomenon.
    So what does it take for someone to be addicted? Is it the shakes, the sweats, and the vomiting like the junkie coming off opiates? Most folks have this image of severe symptoms— physical addiction -- as being uncontrollable. Yet the psychological addiction of marijuana is seen as less severe and hence manageable, needing only a good dose ofwillpower to get over it. But, the psychological craving can be stronger than the physical withdrawal. The brain wants what it wants, when it wants it and for some these cravings are overwhelming.
    In other words the brain craves the drug of choice despite the negative consequences involved. Whether the addict loses his job, savings, home or family, the brain relentlessly continues to crave the drug and the user will continue to use, all the while justifying and rationalizing why he does not have a problem. After all, denial is a huge part of any addiction. It’s just a bit easier to deny with pot than with other “more dangerous” drugs.
    If you acknowledge that psychological withdrawal symptoms consitiute withdrawal, then there is no doubt that marijuana meets all of the criteria to be considered addicting.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 07-25-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Just a small thought..........caffeine could be considered to be additive for some people. Anyone who gets the missed caffeine head ache knows full well they are addicted. Hubby never has any trouble from missing a cup or two of coffee but I SUFFER if I drink anything with caffeine in it for a few weeks and then don't get my caffeine "fix". Not sure if it can be defined as addictive by some people though.

    P.S. I can't spell.
    Last edited by charly_t; 07-25-2014 at 06:23 PM.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    I am absolutely at least for the decriminalization of the use of pretty much all drugs. Most I would make the unregulated production and sale illegal, but I don't see where putting casual users or addicts in jail has been all that successful. Our jails are many and crowded. There is a huge and costly bureaucracy engaged in the "war on drugs".

    I do find Shiney's assertion that "natural" substances are OK, but if you have to chemically alter it it's not. Very little of the alcohol that folks consume comes from fruit that fermented on the tree.
    The fruit that ferments, is converted to alcohol by more naturally occuring items. Yeast feeds on the sugar, and the by-product is alcohol. No artificial chemicals to make it.
    James Durfee A.K.A Shinyhead

  4. #14
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I believe it should stay illegal. I believe alcohol and tobacco also shouldnt be legal.
    Mother died of lung cancer.
    Close family friend is a burn out, and unable to function in society.
    First wife alcoholic

    The use of these substances by adults is a horrible example to set for our kids..its cost to our society, and erosion of our moral values.

    Heres what I believe about addiction
    (P.S. I have walked the walk.This is only my opinion. It is not my place to judge anyone..)

    ADDICTION
    DSM-IV describes drug dependence as the compulsive regular use of a substance, despite ONGOING negative consequences. Addiction symptoms include all of those listed above for abuse, plus tolerance (the need for a higher dose to get the same effect), withdrawal symptoms (when the drug is stopped) and cravings.
    Some drugs are very physically and psychologically addictive and have obvious, terrible withdrawal symptoms. These are easy to identify, such as heroin, barbiturates or alcohol. Others like marijuana are psychologically addictive, and the withdrawal includes psychological symptoms like anxiety, mood swings and depression. These are harder to identify, leading to the question of whether they are really related to withdrawal versus a “I miss my pot” phenomenon.
    So what does it take for someone to be addicted? Is it the shakes, the sweats, and the vomiting like the junkie coming off opiates? Most folks have this image of severe symptoms— physical addiction -- as being uncontrollable. Yet the psychological addiction of marijuana is seen as less severe and hence manageable, needing only a good dose ofwillpower to get over it. But, the psychological craving can be stronger than the physical withdrawal. The brain wants what it wants, when it wants it and for some these cravings are overwhelming.
    In other words the brain craves the drug of choice despite the negative consequences involved. Whether the addict loses his job, savings, home or family, the brain relentlessly continues to crave the drug and the user will continue to use, all the while justifying and rationalizing why he does not have a problem. After all, denial is a huge part of any addiction. It’s just a bit easier to deny with pot than with other “more dangerous” drugs.
    If you acknowledge that psychological withdrawal symptoms consitiute withdrawal, then there is no doubt that marijuana meets all of the criteria to be considered addicting.
    Gooser, I agree that drugs, alcohol, tobacco and many other substances can cause long-term harm to the user. Two questions: 1. Do you think prohibition of any of these is an effective means of preventing people from using them? 2. Is the role of government to protect us from ourselves? If you answer yes to both of these questions, at what point does the cost of enforcement become too high to those of us who are paying the bills?
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

  5. #15
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I think many of us as responsible adults manage alcohol, and tobacco well. There are many of us that dont however, and drive on roads, cause deaths, become abusive to others,and just become a menace to society.

    THESE folks inhibit the majority of society from their freedom of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness..

    THEY respond by denial that they dont have a problem,and blame others,,, the ones that want to control their substance,,, inhibit their happiness..
    Their happiness however is an altered state of mind,that can, and often does,, become a craving they can not resist ..Physiological addiction.

    We as adults, to set the precedence that this behavior is morally acceptable, is a huge disservice to our kids,and just an awful negative example to set.

    I am strictly talking RECREATIONAL use of drugs.. The amount of THC in Medical MJ is very different from what is being sold in recreational pot shops. medical MJ is given to the Patient in controlled dosages,with THC levels quality inspected and controlled.

    My druggie friends call the stuff sold in Rec shops,,,,, "One Hit shi!"

    So to answer you question #1... Maybe a more responsible way to prevention, would be to reduce the charges for first time offenders, Plus making Mandatory education a requirement. Repeat offenders receive a stiffer sentence,and Higher monetary fines.But the substance stays illegal based on amounts in possession.

    #2 There are many ways to reduce big Government (Which I am against) Waste.. Those of us who are paying the bills need to sit back and make inventory of what is waist,, and what are gifts of enablement.

    All of this createsa burden to our society,, if we do nothing,, it will only get worse...

    Who do you think takes care of the drop out drug addicts in our society??

    Who do you think pays for the drunk driver that kills on the road? (doesnt matter if he is drunk on booze or Pot)

    Do we just accept that,, or try and nip it in the bud before it happens?
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 07-25-2014 at 07:53 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #16
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I think many of us as responsible adults manage alcohol, and tobacco well. There are many of us that dont however, and drive on roads, cause deaths, become abusive to others,and just become a menace to society.

    THESE folks inhibit the majority of society from their freedom of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness..

    THEY respond by denial that they dont have a problem,and blame others,,, the ones that want to control their substance,,, inhibit their happiness..
    Their happiness however is an altered state of mind,that can, and often does,, become a craving they can not resist ..Physiological addiction.

    We as adults, to set the precedence that this behavior is morally acceptable, is a huge disservice to our kids,and just an awful negative example to set.

    I am strictly talking RECREATIONAL use of drugs.. The amount of THC in Medical MJ is very different from what is being sold in recreational pot shops. medical MJ is given to the Patient in controlled dosages,with THC levels quality inspected and controlled.

    My druggie friends call the stuff sold in Rec shops,,,,, "One Hit shi!"

    So to answer you question #1... Maybe a more responsible way to prevention, would be to reduce the charges for first time offenders, Plus making Mandatory education a requirement. Repeat offenders receive a stiffer sentence,and Higher monetary fines.But the substance stays illegal based on amounts in possession.

    #2 There are many ways to reduce big Government (Which I am against) Waste.. Those of us who are paying the bills need to sit back and make inventory of what is waist,, and what are gifts of enablement.

    All of this createsa burden to our society,, if we do nothing,, it will only get worse...

    Who do you think takes care of the drop out drug addicts in our society??

    Who do you think pays for the drunk driver that kills on the road? (doesnt matter if he is drunk on booze or Pot)

    Do we just accept that,, or try and nip it in the bud before it happens?
    In an ideal world, I'm with you, but in the real world, I have to question the cost/benefit of fighting the war on drugs. I know that alcohol and drugs ruin too many lives and end the lives of innocents every day, but how many are ruined by the criminalization of what is really more of a medical problem. I have several friends who have become very successful scientists, engineers, businessmen, who, if caught smoking pot back in the mid 70's, could have been given very long prison terms. Hell, I could have gone to prison just for being in the dorm room with them when they were smoking. They could have been falling down drunks, and as long as they didn't cause some direct public menace, no problem. This just doesn't make since to me. There have also been plenty of studies that indicate that penalties for simple possession are disproportionately harsh in the minority community and light among the "privileged".

    I think that legalization of Marijuana will be an interesting experiment. The crime rate will go down just by the fact that possessing pot will no longer be a crime. Legislating morality is a dangerous practice, that's essentially what sharia law is and I don't think anyone here likes the way that looks. I'm pretty sure that most of us don't like the idea of the nanny state where the Govt' legislates that we can't do things that might harm us. What if they decided to limit the amount of sugar we could consume (diabetes and heart disease appear to be closely linked to sugar consumption). I am all for the govt' requiring that we are informed about risk so that we can make informed decisions about risk, and I want some regulation where the risk is also to others (not doing certain things when one is intoxicated, for instance), but I would prefer minimal government interference in our lives. There are several reasons people cite when giving reasons for the prohibition of recreational drug use, ranging from the altruistic (they are bad for your health and cause direct harm to you) to the selfish (they are bad for society and since I am a member of that society, they are bad for me). I just don't see continuing with the hypocrisy of allowing Ethanol consumption and prohibiting THC consumption.

    I've had a pretty long day, long week, long month, and so this wandered quite a bit, and may not be as cogent as I would like, but it really comes down to I can't want the govt to mostly stay out of my business and yet meddle in that of other responsible adults (that is accepting that many adults can use intoxicants in a responsible manner) who make choices that are not the choices that I would make.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    For those who oppose the legalization of marijuana - do you believe that alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal as well? How about super-size soft drinks? Cars cabable of exceeding the speed limit? Why or why not?

    For those in favor of legalized marijuana - do you believe that cocaine, heroin, crack, and meth should be legalized as well? Why or why not?

    The point of this is not to have you attack each other for the differences in your beliefs. It's to allow you to explain your position on the issue in a reasonable way so that I can understand the different perspectives.
    Hard to lump a harmless substance like MJ with all the rest.

    But, if this country really wanted to get drug abuse under control, we would;

    Get it off the streets by making it legal. End the failed war on drugs and use a small portion of that budget for drug education. Talk about taking a huge bite out of crime!

    Our current policy which is the irresponsible policy only harms more people.

    Only when this country handles the issue with a realistic policy will things get better.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  8. #18
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    In an ideal world, I'm with you, but in the real world, I have to question the cost/benefit of fighting the war on drugs. I know that alcohol and drugs ruin too many lives and end the lives of innocents every day, but how many are ruined by the criminalization of what is really more of a medical problem. I have several friends who have become very successful scientists, engineers, businessmen, who, if caught smoking pot back in the mid 70's, could have been given very long prison terms. Hell, I could have gone to prison just for being in the dorm room with them when they were smoking. They could have been falling down drunks, and as long as they didn't cause some direct public menace, no problem. This just doesn't make since to me. There have also been plenty of studies that indicate that penalties for simple possession are disproportionately harsh in the minority community and light among the "privileged".

    I think that legalization of Marijuana will be an interesting experiment. The crime rate will go down just by the fact that possessing pot will no longer be a crime. Legislating morality is a dangerous practice, that's essentially what sharia law is and I don't think anyone here likes the way that looks. I'm pretty sure that most of us don't like the idea of the nanny state where the Govt' legislates that we can't do things that might harm us. What if they decided to limit the amount of sugar we could consume (diabetes and heart disease appear to be closely linked to sugar consumption). I am all for the govt' requiring that we are informed about risk so that we can make informed decisions about risk, and I want some regulation where the risk is also to others (not doing certain things when one is intoxicated, for instance), but I would prefer minimal government interference in our lives. There are several reasons people cite when giving reasons for the prohibition of recreational drug use, ranging from the altruistic (they are bad for your health and cause direct harm to you) to the selfish (they are bad for society and since I am a member of that society, they are bad for me). I just don't see continuing with the hypocrisy of allowing Ethanol consumption and prohibiting THC consumption.

    I've had a pretty long day, long week, long month, and so this wandered quite a bit, and may not be as cogent as I would like, but it really comes down to I can't want the govt to mostly stay out of my business and yet meddle in that of other responsible adults (that is accepting that many adults can use intoxicants in a responsible manner) who make choices that are not the choices that I would make.
    The opponents love the Nanny State and big government and would prefer to keep us in the Dark Ages! They also don't see how they too are American type Taliban with their closed minded and unfounded prejudices against something they really have no understanding of. They think their morality is the only way and want to force it on others. They fear Freedom and oppose personal responsibility. No different than the Liberals who want to limit sugar consumption or anything else they don't agree with. They fail to see it as a better alternative with untapped medicinal potential. They are controlled by fear and misinformation.
    Last edited by Franco; 07-26-2014 at 07:48 AM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  9. #19
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Recently on smokingpipes.com forums, people where sharing photos of their tobacco cellars. Lots of pipe and cigar smokers are stocking up in fear of rising prices and/or the banning of tobacco in the USA by the nannies.

    This is a photo of my cellar which is a variety of Oriental and Virginia forward blends. Proper cellaring ads to the flavor of quality tobaccos.

    My cellar is rather small with only about 25lbs of some of the best smoking tobaccos in the world. In my book, Denmark and Germany produce the best blends using Oriental, Virginia, Latakia, Burley and Perique tobaccos.



    Some of my pipes. I have a fondness for Italian Savinellis and Danish Erik Nordings though my most expensive pipe is a meerschaum from Turkey carved by Baki.

    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  10. #20
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    For those who oppose the legalization of marijuana - do you believe that alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal as well? How about super-size soft drinks? Cars cabable of exceeding the speed limit? Why or why not?

    For those in favor of legalized marijuana - do you believe that cocaine, heroin, crack, and meth should be legalized as well? Why or why not?

    The point of this is not to have you attack each other for the differences in your beliefs. It's to allow you to explain your position on the issue in a reasonable way so that I can understand the different perspectives.
    I always find it interesting that most POTUS threads involve a bunch of folks jumping in with platitudes and political talking points, but whenever we are required to truly think about an issue and explain our own, personal opinion, not nearly as many of us want to get involved. Thanks to those who engaged the conversation, but I evidently didn't do a very good job of asking the questions. So I'll give my position on this.

    I believe that a crime requires a victim other than the perpetrator's self. In my opinion, we as individuals are free to do whatever we choose as long as we do not deprive another of thier rights. If I choose to smoke cigarettes, smoke weed, drink myself to death or commit suicide, that is my decision to make and is no business of my fellow citizens or the government (in our system, the same thing).
    Many people will jump in here and bring up all the "unseen victims" in a person's choice to use recreational drugs. They will point to the crime caused in this country and others by the illegal drug trade. They will tie gang-related violence to recreational marijuana. But it is the PROHIBITION of marijuana that has caused this violence. Criminals at many levels are involved in the trade of illegal drugs because their illegality makes them lucrative. It is no different than the illegal trade in alcohol during Prohibition. Gang violence was rampant when there was a booming black market for alcohol, but now it is nonexistent. It was the PROHIBITION that created the market that led to the violence. People aren't being murdered in Chicago and Tijuana because someone in the U.S. wants to smoke a joint. They are being murdered because our policies have given the criminals a gold mine that they are willing to protect at any cost.
    Then many will bring up the "gateway drug" position. Research indicates that most users of "hard drugs" smoked marijauna before they used harder drugs. The conclusion is that marijuana somehow leads someone to heroin or crack. The problem with this conclusion, in my opinion, is with methodology. I submit two questions here. 1. Since many of these hard drug users drank alcohol before they smoked marijuana, is alcohol really the "gateway drug"? And isn't it legal? 2. How many people smoke marijuana who never go on to use "hard drugs"? Those of us who have experience with alcohol, marijuana and harder drugs realize that legalizing marijuana will make no difference in the rate of usage of harder drugs. The psychological make-up of the individual has a much higher bearing on the likelyhood of drug use than legality.
    Next comes the "what about the children?" argument. Here's the truth. If your teenager wants to smoke pot, he's going to smoke pot. If he doesn't want to smoke pot, he won't. If he wants to drink alcohol, he's going to drink alcohol. If he doesn't, he won't. If you believe that the legal status of either will make a difference, you are choosing to ignore reality.
    So what has the prohibition of marijuana accomplished? It's burned hundreds of billions of dollars at the Federal, State and local levels, it's cost countless lives in drug-related violence, it has exacerbated our illegal immigration problem by causing people to flee the violence in their home countries and it's overcrowded our prison systems. What has it not accomplished? Preventing people from using marijuana. So is it successful and effective policy? I think not. Would legalization be a better policy? I don't see how it could be worse. At a minimum it would convert a net drain on our resources to a net gain.
    In my opinion, if we focus on and enforce crimes that have direct victims, we are much better off as a society. When we start criminalizing behaviors that have no direct victim other than the self, we head down a slippery slope. When in doubt, I default to liberty because it has been proven to be best route to human happiness and we must remain vigilant to preserve it against the natural tendency for humans to want to control the actions of others.
    Fewer people smoke cigarettes today than in years past. Not because the government made them illegal, but because people are better educated today about the health risks (partly due to government action). Fewer people drink and drive today because we more strongly punish a crime that has a potential victim (driving while intoxicated) rather than making alcohol illegal. These are effective policies. Prohibition has been PROVEN to be ineffective.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

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