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Thread: Marijuana legality

  1. #21
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    http://www.holland.com/us/tourism/ar...rug-policy.htm

    But again, Im sure some of you would consider this nannisum?

    Amsterdam and the Netherlands are very liberal minded compared to us,, be even with their lienient policy, ALL drugs are illegal,but their policy works to hopefully reduce drug use.

    Seriously,, is this what you want on the streets of the U.S. ?????

    In my opinion,, they are enabling physiologically addicted people. (Go ahead, beat me up)
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 07-26-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    http://www.holland.com/us/tourism/ar...rug-policy.htm

    But again, Im sure some of you would consider this nannisum?

    Amsterdam and the Netherlands are very liberal minded compared to us,, be even with their lienient policy, ALL drugs are illegal,but their policy works to hopefully reduce drug use.

    Seriously,, is this what you want on the streets of the U.S. ?????
    From the link you provided so, I would say "yes".

    Facts

    The Dutch policy on drugs has been reasonably successful compared to the policies pursued in other countries, especially when it comes to prevention and care. The number of users of various types of drugs is no greater than in other countries, while the figure for drug-related deaths, at 2.4 per million inhabitants, is the lowest in Europe.
    Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery. Calvin Coolidge



  3. #23
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    I always find it interesting that most POTUS threads involve a bunch of folks jumping in with platitudes and political talking points, but whenever we are required to truly think about an issue and explain our own, personal opinion, not nearly as many of us want to get involved. Thanks to those who engaged the conversation, but I evidently didn't do a very good job of asking the questions. So I'll give my position on this.

    I believe that a crime requires a victim other than the perpetrator's self. In my opinion, we as individuals are free to do whatever we choose as long as we do not deprive another of thier rights. If I choose to smoke cigarettes, smoke weed, drink myself to death or commit suicide, that is my decision to make and is no business of my fellow citizens or the government (in our system, the same thing).
    Many people will jump in here and bring up all the "unseen victims" in a person's choice to use recreational drugs. They will point to the crime caused in this country and others by the illegal drug trade. They will tie gang-related violence to recreational marijuana. But it is the PROHIBITION of marijuana that has caused this violence. Criminals at many levels are involved in the trade of illegal drugs because their illegality makes them lucrative. It is no different than the illegal trade in alcohol during Prohibition. Gang violence was rampant when there was a booming black market for alcohol, but now it is nonexistent. It was the PROHIBITION that created the market that led to the violence. People aren't being murdered in Chicago and Tijuana because someone in the U.S. wants to smoke a joint. They are being murdered because our policies have given the criminals a gold mine that they are willing to protect at any cost.
    Then many will bring up the "gateway drug" position. Research indicates that most users of "hard drugs" smoked marijauna before they used harder drugs. The conclusion is that marijuana somehow leads someone to heroin or crack. The problem with this conclusion, in my opinion, is with methodology. I submit two questions here. 1. Since many of these hard drug users drank alcohol before they smoked marijuana, is alcohol really the "gateway drug"? And isn't it legal? 2. How many people smoke marijuana who never go on to use "hard drugs"? Those of us who have experience with alcohol, marijuana and harder drugs realize that legalizing marijuana will make no difference in the rate of usage of harder drugs. The psychological make-up of the individual has a much higher bearing on the likelyhood of drug use than legality.
    Next comes the "what about the children?" argument. Here's the truth. If your teenager wants to smoke pot, he's going to smoke pot. If he doesn't want to smoke pot, he won't. If he wants to drink alcohol, he's going to drink alcohol. If he doesn't, he won't. If you believe that the legal status of either will make a difference, you are choosing to ignore reality.
    So what has the prohibition of marijuana accomplished? It's burned hundreds of billions of dollars at the Federal, State and local levels, it's cost countless lives in drug-related violence, it has exacerbated our illegal immigration problem by causing people to flee the violence in their home countries and it's overcrowded our prison systems. What has it not accomplished? Preventing people from using marijuana. So is it successful and effective policy? I think not. Would legalization be a better policy? I don't see how it could be worse. At a minimum it would convert a net drain on our resources to a net gain.
    In my opinion, if we focus on and enforce crimes that have direct victims, we are much better off as a society. When we start criminalizing behaviors that have no direct victim other than the self, we head down a slippery slope. When in doubt, I default to liberty because it has been proven to be best route to human happiness and we must remain vigilant to preserve it against the natural tendency for humans to want to control the actions of others.
    Fewer people smoke cigarettes today than in years past. Not because the government made them illegal, but because people are better educated today about the health risks (partly due to government action). Fewer people drink and drive today because we more strongly punish a crime that has a potential victim (driving while intoxicated) rather than making alcohol illegal. These are effective policies. Prohibition has been PROVEN to be ineffective.
    Spoken like a true Libertarian!

    Until greater minds can minimize the impact of those wanting to keep this country in the Dark Ages, people will continue to suffer needlessly.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Bon,
    Could you expound a bit on what you see as potential long-term effects on society and what message it sends to our kids? Do you think that having alcohol and tobacco legal and MJ illegal sends a message? What would that message be? Do you think that legal MJ and illegal cocaine sends a message?
    Thanks,
    I promised you a response so here it goes...

    I consider myself well educated on the potential effects of drugs,pharmacology, and its potential side effects...my late BIL Stanley was a pharmacist and he and my sister owned a small pharmaceutical management company in SoCal, growing up they made sure I knew as much about drugs as humanly possible so as to remove any curiousity in its use..I also ready many of my brother's medical textbooks especially the ones about drugs because they contained all the graphic pictures of the effect on the human body of long term drug use...I saw up close how my teenage nephew Jeremy started out as "pothead" and eventually graduated to harder stuff and now into his 40's is one step away from living on the street again in a cardboard box

    So all that aside, I am NOT trying to stop or convince anyone on here that wishes to partake from using whatever their drug of choice may be..Go for it,but I wont be an enabler for you, and dont expect me to endorse it..You will use it,grow it, smoke it, as do many of my co workers and a few of my friends..just like dog training I am not trying to change hearts and minds

    What does concern me is my son, and the future of his world, I have seen many of the things that made this country great slowly erode and disappear as I fast approach senior citizen status. The erosion of the family unit has a lot to do with that, the two parent working paradigm, the latch key kid..the violence on TV and now the more readily available drug of choice from a seeming harmless joint up to and including professional grade adderall, oxycontin, and even stuff like paxil and prozac....They all add up to erode society, add in the alcohol and voila as Bob Dylan once wrote "....everybody must get stoned.."

    the proponents of MJ can compare it to alcohol, they can talk about the revenue it generates, or the pain it makes disappear....BUT not once have I seen anyone say it will make society as a whole better...My generation made its choices already and we pay the price for that on a daily basis...I just hope for better things for the world and society that my son inherits
    All my Exes live in Texas

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  5. #25
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Matt, that is an excellent oration! I have heard it all. Many times ... circa 1970.

    The difference is that it came then from a bunch of "long-haired, hippie degenerates" who were the shame of their parents and of the establishment in general. (the same bunch that ended the Vietnam fiasco, but that's a different story.)

    Now here we are, 40 or 50 years later, and guess what ... some of those same non-conformists are policy makers. That's how the world changes; slowly and carefully. I always wondered if this particular issue would occur in my lifetime simply because I viewed it as political suicide for any legislator that publicly favored it. And there are still the adamant detractors, but my prediction is that the rest of the country will watch and see that the world did not come to an end, that all the fears are grossly hyped and within 10 years it will be a non-issue.

    It can be very painful when someone moves your cheese.

    JS
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  6. #26
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    Here is the problem with the "More Will become drug addicts if MJ get legalized" .....

    We have lived in a society where drugs are illegal and it does not stop our Wives, husbands, sisters, brothers and their kids from getting involved with drugs... addictive personalities are going to exist with or without laws. We look at drug use as some kind of choice, but we fail to see the individual has the mental handicap of not being able to break the addiction. These people need counseling not jail.

    Obesity is a major issue in America, causes health care costs to sky rise, yet we do not put obese people in jail. We as a society pick and choose our demons. The problem is our society suffers from some mental issues and we do not treat as an illness.

    I guess we could use the argument that beer and wine drinkers most often lead to hitting the whiskey bottle. But is that true?... perhaps if the person is going to be an alcoholic. Many people go their entire lives able to drink socially and never drive drunk.

    In Massachusetts Pot and Heroin are both illegal.... we just had a 17 year old friend of the family die from a heroin overdose. Tragic. Laws were on the books, but the kids can get $10.00 for a hit of heroin. A high said to be the best there is... Laws stop nothing when we can't seem to keep the stuff off our streets.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    "Legalization" and "decriminalization" are 2 different things.

    Consider me naive.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    "Legalization" and "decriminalization" are 2 different things.

    Consider me naive.
    Please elaborate. I would like to fully understand what you mean.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

  9. #29
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I promised you a response so here it goes...

    I consider myself well educated on the potential effects of drugs,pharmacology, and its potential side effects...my late BIL Stanley was a pharmacist and he and my sister owned a small pharmaceutical management company in SoCal, growing up they made sure I knew as much about drugs as humanly possible so as to remove any curiousity in its use..I also ready many of my brother's medical textbooks especially the ones about drugs because they contained all the graphic pictures of the effect on the human body of long term drug use...I saw up close how my teenage nephew Jeremy started out as "pothead" and eventually graduated to harder stuff and now into his 40's is one step away from living on the street again in a cardboard box

    So all that aside, I am NOT trying to stop or convince anyone on here that wishes to partake from using whatever their drug of choice may be..Go for it,but I wont be an enabler for you, and dont expect me to endorse it..You will use it,grow it, smoke it, as do many of my co workers and a few of my friends..just like dog training I am not trying to change hearts and minds

    What does concern me is my son, and the future of his world, I have seen many of the things that made this country great slowly erode and disappear as I fast approach senior citizen status. The erosion of the family unit has a lot to do with that, the two parent working paradigm, the latch key kid..the violence on TV and now the more readily available drug of choice from a seeming harmless joint up to and including professional grade adderall, oxycontin, and even stuff like paxil and prozac....They all add up to erode society, add in the alcohol and voila as Bob Dylan once wrote "....everybody must get stoned.."

    the proponents of MJ can compare it to alcohol, they can talk about the revenue it generates, or the pain it makes disappear....BUT not once have I seen anyone say it will make society as a whole better...My generation made its choices already and we pay the price for that on a daily basis...I just hope for better things for the world and society that my son inherits
    You nailed it Bon... My thoughts, in your words.
    Bill Davis

  10. #30
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Well said Bon.....
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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