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Thread: cheating on the return

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Another good way to refresh these skills is to use the Swim-by Tune Up
    Been doing that and variations for many years. I think many don't understand the significance of "keeping a dog honest" in the water for the duration of the career . Also "keeping the force alive" many years later with discipline casting in the water and land. It's all about your standard of the venue you are running in and what you expect from your dog. If the dog cheats on the return in training on the first bird then what about the second, third and fourth bird? It's somewhat like the drills of old, there isn't always a "better mousetrap" most of this stuff goes back generations, raise it to an intellectual level, put a spin on it and you have a program. Unfortunately many folks today farm out their work (some out of necessity) think once basics are done it will carry for the rest of the dog's life. They follow the perfect World training program, get into trouble and can't get out. They should just quit digging the hole and seek competent advice. My post stands, should go seek the advice of his former pro.
    Last edited by Criquetpas; 08-01-2014 at 12:44 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAH View Post
    Evan
    From what I've learned or think I've learned is Swim by is to

    Make sure the dog gets into the water when sent and drive towards the mark or blind, whistle stop in the water coming or going and look for direction/command It teaches the dog to stop in the water, turn around and look for directions, staying in the water until released to come out or follow the command until given another one staying on line regardless if it would be easier to get to point b if on land.
    Basically the same concepts as T and double T on land but transferred to water
    As you've already seen, opinions vary on what Swim-by is, and what it's used for. Feel free to email me for a clear video explanation of that. I can tell you this; I use it differently than many who see it as simply handling on return. rushcreekpress@aol.com

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  3. #33
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    While cheating water on the return does not cost you anything at the weekend test, I have seen it be an indication in some dogs that their standard of water honesty is eroding and pretty soon they may be cheating on the way out.

    I have seen it enough that I personally would not ignore it. Especially since it is not that difficult to maintain the standard once it has been trained into the dog. Some dogs will test their limits more than others, so the degree of maintenance necessary varies dog to dog. In your case, since your dog previously performed well and is now suddenly showing a propensity to get out of the water early, I would consider if he is looking for an easier way. Barring something physical, of course.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    Unfortunately many folks today farm out their work (some out of necessity) think once basics are done it will carry for the rest of the dog's life. T
    I totally agree.

    Since we are in the start of training camps for football, think about it this way: there are lots of guys right now making millions of dollars at the top of their game running drills we all ran back in pee wee football. It is pretty much the same in any sport. Except in retriever training, we often seem to think we check a particular skill building drill off the list and never need a refresher. Not that you have to start at square one like a puppy or there aren't variations that may get the same refresher to the dog with more time advantage or whatever. This is one of the areas where the amateur with one or two dogs can actually beat the pros. It is hard to justify running 25 dogs through a swim by (or pile or wagon wheel, etc.) refresher every year (although some do, at least with some dogs) but it is nothing to spend some time with one or two of your own.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    While cheating water on the return does not cost you anything at the weekend test, I have seen it be an indication in some dogs that their standard of water honesty is eroding and pretty soon they may be cheating on the way out.

    JS
    Absolutely right! Allowed to cheat returns long enough, their cheating going out will erode. It's a read to their being dry-minded.

    Evan
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    While cheating water on the return does not cost you anything at the weekend test, I have seen it be an indication in some dogs that their standard of water honesty is eroding and pretty soon they may be cheating on the way out.

    I have seen it enough that I personally would not ignore it. Especially since it is not that difficult to maintain the standard once it has been trained into the dog. Some dogs will test their limits more than others, so the degree of maintenance necessary varies dog to dog. In your case, since your dog previously performed well and is now suddenly showing a propensity to get out of the water early, I would consider if he is looking for an easier way. Barring something physical, of course.

    JS
    No need to repeat. This plus EDA comments are important. Keep your standards high! IMO
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Here's one way to tell if dog is paying attention to you and will give you a big ass swimby on demand.
    When dog is returning from a long swim from a blind or a mark and caving towards the shore, simply stand up and give an Over cast out to sea without saying anything. Keep your arm out in casting position. If dog doesn't take cast, Low Nick, so he looks at you. "who me Boss?" (He may be on auto pilot swimming back and not really paying attention to you.) Now, with arm still out there, dog looking, retract arm and cast again (maybe add a little side step). Say nothing. Did dog cast? Good! Did dog carry cast or simply swim a few yards and look at you or turn to you? Hold arm out, nick. You want dog to take the over cast and Not look at you or try to Come in Until you give a Toot Toot. At first don't beat them up and make them swim over too far.
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  8. #38
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    One thing I have learned hangin around types like Dr Ed... They have standards that are strickly enforced,they know the problems that will most definitely arise,,and they take steps to make sure a "Trait doesnt become a "habit".. After letting a dog cheat for three times,,,,either on the way out or back,, you now have a habit"
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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  9. #39
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    I cant tell you the number of times when I have sent my dog on a blind,, and thought, "Look at that great line", Only to have the dreded voice come from behind me saying "WHERE ARE YOU GOING??????
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    Here's one way to tell if dog is paying attention to you and will give you a big ass swimby on demand.
    When dog is returning from a long swim from a blind or a mark and caving towards the shore, simply stand up and give an Over cast out to sea without saying anything. Keep your arm out in casting position. If dog doesn't take cast, Low Nick, so he looks at you. "who me Boss?" (He may be on auto pilot swimming back and not really paying attention to you.) Now, with arm still out there, dog looking, retract arm and cast again (maybe add a little side step). Say nothing. Did dog cast? Good! Did dog carry cast or simply swim a few yards and look at you or turn to you? Hold arm out, nick. You want dog to take the over cast and Not look at you or try to Come in Until you give a Toot Toot. At first don't beat them up and make them swim over too far.
    Have fun.
    I try to work on swim=by like you describe on a regular basis on both Marks and blinds.. Cast, and make them swim by you for quite a ways before calling them in to you.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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