First post brand new to the forum I have a 4 year BLF master hunter and recently she is developing a nasty habit and I cant seem to correct it
She takes a great line on the way out and no issues entering the water on water marks and takes an initially great line on the return. The problem comes when she is about 2/3 to 3/4's of the way back she turns to shore and puts it in high gear. I try and whistle stop her and she blows it off and if possible puts it in an even higher gear towards shore. I have also tried waiting until she gets to the edge of the shore and whistle stop her (which she will do) and cast her back into the water to try and get her back on the correct line. She fights the cast but will hesitantly go on the back cast and then when given the over cast will take it but only for a yards before she points again to shore and puts it in high gear. Ideas please
I have seen others use helpers positioned along the shore to prevent dog from getting out of water. Not sure if it works as a long term fix. These were puppies that had not done swim-by yet. Do know that for every time the dog runs the bank you'll have to correct it about 20 or 40 times. Always better to prevent a wrong behavior than try to fix it. Am interested to see what others suggest....sounds like she just wised up and figured she can return faster via land than water. Unfortunately the rules of the "games" are not always the most practical behaviors.
she was given a great foundation including teaching and enforcing swimby by a weel respected pro trainer and has her master title this has just popped up in the past couple of weeks
even when she has to swim across a pond and get out to retrieve on land she takes the correct line when reentering, does not run the bank but about 3/4's of the way back on her swim he turns to shore and starts digging hard she generally only comes out about 10 to 15 maybe 20 yards short of where she would of exited had she held the line all the way back
no problems swimming that I can see she will charge the water on entry and depending on the mark or blind swim up to 80/100 yards get out go 10 to 25 yards on land for the retrieve and reenter on correct line with plenty of drive and swim the 70 to 80 yards back on the correct line before making her dash to the bank Same thing on shorter/longer swims for marks/blinds
Better than the other way around. My first FT dog Cody, the dog in my avatar was a notorious cheater, eventually had to retire him for it, but he was maddeningly honest on the return. He would fail a waterblind miserably by cheating the back half, refuse to pick up until he got the bird, then swim on a perfect line, on and off points all the way back, just made me madder. I'm not suggesting this is right, but my old training partner Jim Mitchell had an unofficial agreement with his FC-AFC, that if he worked well going out on the water blind, Jim would let him cheat a bit on the return. In your case I think it would be better to revisit swim-by with your pro, then hand the reins back over to you under his supervision.
Thanks John, Ed, Dog luva New to this game first dog to run tests first dog I've ever handled etc someone once made the comment that they are not being judged on the way back dont know how much truth there is to that but I dont want her to get away with this as I am worried that if she feels she can get away with this she can get away with other stuff
If dog is used to being handled by a pro she may not have quite the same respect for you. Someone mentioned having the trainer tune her up, maybe you go together and work together under his direction? I train my dogs, so unfortunately all our mistakes are my fault.
Stop the cheaty marks until you clean this up.
Take her to big water with a long, straight bank.
Set your line so you're in the middle of the bank, minimum 40 - 50 yds to nearest bank corner.
Throw a mark.
On the return, before she makes land, cast her to do a swimby. Make her carry it all the way up & out the end of the pond. Then call her in.
Once she will do this on a single, silent cast, you're good.
Let us know how it goes.
Evan
From what I've learned or think I've learned is Swim by is to
Make sure the dog gets into the water when sent and drive towards the mark or blind, whistle stop in the water coming or going and look for direction/command It teaches the dog to stop in the water, turn around and look for directions, staying in the water until released to come out or follow the command until given another one staying on line regardless if it would be easier to get to point b if on land.
Basically the same concepts as T and double T on land but transferred to water
As you've already seen, opinions vary on what Swim-by is, and what it's used for. Feel free to email me for a clear video explanation of that. I can tell you this; I use it differently than many who see it as simply handling on return. rushcreekpress@aol.com
dog luvuh I handled her through JR..Sr .. and her last three mater passes to title her that's why I am confused / concernd / frustrated I know she has done it and can do it jsut wondering what I did to let this pop up DAH stands for something I dont wear proudly but accurately...just ask my wife
The short and skinny to this is....there are too many variables involved to just answer on an internet to give advice. Some general knowledge yes, but we don't know anything about this dog and I believe you will do an injustice on what the team has accomplish on this dog.
Go seek the pro that train her and have him or her help you correct this. I really beleive this would be fair for all parties involved especially for you. Dog doesn't care.
My two pennies worth.
Every year no matter the age have gone back to the swimby. Not to pile work on each end or across, toss a bumper in what would be your swimby pond, give THE OVER Cast for the "discipline casting" with bumper in mouth to the end and out depending on how the dog was originally taught . Do this in a couple of locations. Have done it with dogs that are upwards to 9 or 10 years old. In our group dogs range from 18 months to 9 years old and all are put through discipline casting. If your not sure make a phone call to the pro that did it.
DAH, since you are new here you may not know that you've had responses from some accomplished trainers and handlers of varying degrees of which I am probably one of the least. Having said that, I think that you are not asking too much of your dog to come back directly and more importantly IMO to take your casts with bumper/bird in mouth on the return. I don't understand why a dog on this level would not perform discipline casting on either land or water.
I like the idea that someone proposed - take the dog back to the pro who did the training and watch/participate as the pro puts her back through swim-by. Then every once in a while make your dog do a "swim by" on a return with a bumper/duck in mouth during training just to remind her that you can make her do that.
Someone else said not to put that dog in that position and I agree UNTIL you get a chance to go get it sorted out. In other words, until you have the ability to enforce it stop putting her in positions to disobey you in this manner as that only reinforces that she CAN do that.
BTW, DAH is a great handle and welcome to the RTF!
There's are great drill I learned from Chris Akin, throw straight in marks to middle of pond so the dog has to stay wet going and returning. Then throw down the shore, send dog and don't do anything no matter if the dog runs the shore to the mark. On the return use low level nicks all the way back to you as soon as the dog hits shore. The dog makes the decision not you to stay in the water. But on a side note some ask why not let them cheat on the way back, because you are letting the dog cheat half the time. Also if its just on the return and you are not seeing it creep in on marks I wouldn't worry about it.
While cheating water on the return does not cost you anything at the weekend test, I have seen it be an indication in some dogs that their standard of water honesty is eroding and pretty soon they may be cheating on the way out.
I have seen it enough that I personally would not ignore it. Especially since it is not that difficult to maintain the standard once it has been trained into the dog. Some dogs will test their limits more than others, so the degree of maintenance necessary varies dog to dog. In your case, since your dog previously performed well and is now suddenly showing a propensity to get out of the water early, I would consider if he is looking for an easier way. Barring something physical, of course.
While cheating water on the return does not cost you anything at the weekend test, I have seen it be an indication in some dogs that their standard of water honesty is eroding and pretty soon they may be cheating on the way out.
Here's one way to tell if dog is paying attention to you and will give you a big ass swimby on demand.
When dog is returning from a long swim from a blind or a mark and caving towards the shore, simply stand up and give an Over cast out to sea without saying anything. Keep your arm out in casting position. If dog doesn't take cast, Low Nick, so he looks at you. "who me Boss?" (He may be on auto pilot swimming back and not really paying attention to you.) Now, with arm still out there, dog looking, retract arm and cast again (maybe add a little side step). Say nothing. Did dog cast? Good! Did dog carry cast or simply swim a few yards and look at you or turn to you? Hold arm out, nick. You want dog to take the over cast and Not look at you or try to Come in Until you give a Toot Toot. At first don't beat them up and make them swim over too far.
Have fun.
I try to work on swim=by like you describe on a regular basis on both Marks and blinds.. Cast, and make them swim by you for quite a ways before calling them in to you.
One thing I have learned hangin around types like Dr Ed... They have standards that are strickly enforced,they know the problems that will most definitely arise,,and they take steps to make sure a "Trait doesnt become a "habit".. After letting a dog cheat for three times,,,,either on the way out or back,, you now have a habit"
I cant tell you the number of times when I have sent my dog on a blind,, and thought, "Look at that great line", Only to have the dreded voice come from behind me saying "WHERE ARE YOU GOING??????
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