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Thread: e collar issues and basic training questions

  1. #1
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    Default e collar issues and basic training questions

    I have a 6 month old female lab, very high energy dog. E collar is a Garmin Delta collar, 18 levels of stimulation. Background
    we have been working on basic sit, here, heel, kennel commands around the house, and on the leash, and off, 25 foot lead in the backyard. getting very good compliance on sit and kennel. She will sit in one spot while I walk large circles around her, off leash, will sit while I throw bumpers and wait to be released.Pretty good on here, sometimes she wants to keep going her own way. not so great on heel or just walking on leash in public. My wife and kids wanted to walk her every day as a puppy. She got in the habit of pulling. We tried using a choke chain type collar, and the dog would pull just as hard and choke herself the entire time. at 5 months and 40 pounds my wife came back from a walk crying, and said the dog was out of control and she no longer wanted to walk her. I bought a sprenger pinch type collar, and her on leash manners instantly improved.


    I have a school, park, and overgrown lot by me where we throw bumpers and a dove dummy. She brings them to my hand most of the time if there are no distractions. If however some random person walks by she will immediately stop everything and chase down random person, sometimes random person thinks its cute, sometimes random person is very annoyed strange dog is trying to jump on them. I am always embarrassed apologizing trying to pull my dog off of someone. it's hard to take her anywhere to get exercise off leash without her chasing down someone else walking thier dogs or running off to greet some stranger.


    I bought the e collar for correcting known commands, hoping for on the leash type compliance. she wore the e-collar for a week before I ever tried any stimulation. I tried it on myself just to understand what the dog was feeling, put it on my arm and let my wife burn me, I got to 8, didnt want any more after that. Big difference from my arm to my fingertips. Put it on the dog, starting on one continuous and moving up until she showed a reaction. No reaction on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 finally on 11 laying in her crate, she jerked her head up and looked around. Ok 11 is her number? I have the collar tight, high on the neck. Seems kinda high to me, but what do I know?


    Using level 11 we have been working on sit and she is sitting faster and sitting better for my wife. After a dozen sessions off leash of great compliance we went to a field to play fetch off the leash. After a few retreives we are having fun, there is no one in sight. I make another throw, she goes for it, and right before she picks it up, her head snaps up. She smells something, 150 yards away some women are walking a dog. She starts running full speed at them. I start hitting continous and saying sit, she is totaly ignoring me. I am upping the stimulus starting to chase her. I have the controller maxed out on 18 she is 100 yards from me and gaining on random ladies. I hit her several times on full power continuous. She charges into and across the ditch, dry creek bed, stops for a second and scratches collar with her hind leg and keeps going. Random ladies pick up thier dog and start running. I am still giving chase and hitting continous, whistling and yelling stop. She catches ladies and starts jumping on them. I finnally catch her, and try to apologize to women. They dont speak english and continue running and holding their dog. I can't believe the dog shrugged off full power continuous. I believe she was feeling something, because she sat and scratched at the collar, but never vocalized, or seemed at all botherd by it. After a few days we went to the lake to play, after making sure no one was around, I throw the bumper a few times, she is swimming out and returning great, she is in the water coming at me, then suddenly changes directions, and drops the bumper, I look over my shoulder and see two random peole. She is out of the water and charging at them. I am yelling, whistling, and now have collar cranked to the max on 18. Hitting continous, no reaction, runs to random people, shakes water on them , and starts jumping on them. I make it to her, attached her leash, try to apologize. Random people are mumbling trash talk at me the whole time.


    Is it normal to max out the collar and have the dog ignore it? I think I have the collar on very snug. I know the collar works on me.


    I don't let her jump on me, I pop her on the nose. She doesn't even try to jump on me. My mother-in-law and sister-in-law come over and the dog jumps on them, I am yelling and trying to get her to behave and they say it's okay and pet her. I say it is not ok with me, they are like whatever she's a puppy. How do I get her to stop jumping on random people, when half of the people she runs up to seem to encourage it? how do I keep her from being so interested in any random person that appears? any suggestions on what I should do next?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    I am not familiar with the Garmin Delta. But yes I would say that it is very unusual for a dog to keep chugging through a max stimulation.
    Do you know anyone that has a TT Pro collar (any model no.) or Garmin 550 that would let you borrow it. Or do you belong to a local retrieving club where the dog will get exposed to people and other dogs and would put their collar on you dog. That's what I would try to do to see if it's the collar and give him the exposure under a controlled environment.

    Edit: does this collar come with long and short prongs? If it does be sure and put the long prongs on the receiver.
    Last edited by Wayne Nutt; 07-31-2014 at 06:31 PM.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

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    Did that collar come with two sets of prongs? Maybe you need to put the long set in.

  4. #4
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    This collar only comes with fixed prongs. I wanted a basic tri-tronics collar, unfortunately they were bought by Garmin, and this is now the entry level tri-tronics/garmin collar. I am not part of training group, and I dont even know any one with any e collars of any type.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Well you know me sort of. Cowtown HRC is having a training day on Aug 8. They have a monthly meeting at Cabelas. Look.them up on the web. The entry level dog training collar is the 70. I think their website says the Delta Sport was for pets but it still should work for basic ob.
    What landmark do you live close to?
    Last edited by Wayne Nutt; 07-31-2014 at 07:02 PM.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  6. #6
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    I think you are confused about the use of the ecollar and your dog is confused as well. CC to sit is one thing, expecting an excited, distracted puppy to sit on command at a distance is a huge difference. CC your pup to "here", not sit, for that situation, and keep a long lead on her so you can catch her, until she's reliable. You're putting pup in very dangerous situations. Check out Pat Nolan's obedience training with the Ecollar, download the basic manual, it will do you a world of good, whatever your final goals are for this dog, you need some control asap, while being fair to pup about it. http://ponderosakennels.com/dog-trai...ience-training
    http://ponderosakennels.com/node/41/done?sid=2611
    http://www.trainingretrieverpuppies.com/about-pat-nolan

    If you are going to train your dog for hunting or HT, etc, going through FF and yardwork, then you'll need to start following a program. Fowldog videos are decent, Lardy, Farmer, all have basics videos. Nothing will substitute someone showing you hands on, however, especially when it comes to reading your dog, understanding her reactions. Timing and understanding are critical, and not something easily learned from a video or book And you need to figure out if your collar is working correctly and if you have it on properly.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

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    I agree with the poster above. The here command is much more critical for control of your dog than the sit command in situations as you describe. Even when you condition your dog to the here command, you should still be aware of how your dog will act around distractions. Someone with more experience than I may chime in and tell you how to test/train your dog to distractions.

  8. #8
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    I have a serious problem with what is going on here. You used a level 8 on your dog while she was in her crate just to see when you would get a reaction? Trust me, these good dogs can and do learn to work with anything. It seems to me instead of collar conditioning you have conditioned your dog to ignore or work through pain. I think you need to go back and start at day one. Leave off with the e collar entirely until you are involved in a step by step program or have a mentor. Sorry, don't mean to be harsh, but I have a dog of my own that I did not recognize as learning to "deal with" the stimulation rather than change his behavior.
    Carol,
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    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

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    Wayne, I am close to I-30 and 820 on the far west side of town. I will look up cowtown hrc and might be able to come to cabelas. If the garmin delta is for just for pets what do you consider your dogs?

    I should say this dog is not intended to be a field trial champion. I mostly dove hunt, and no longer want to hunt ducks on public land, peppered by idiots with steel shot, who showed up late, isnt fun. I have always wished a had a super dog with a famous pedigre trained by a pro trainer, but that is not in my budget. My wife bought this dog as a family pet, the kids have been wanting a dog. So she brought one home. I was suprized to see several master hunter titles on her dads side but the mother side seems to be backyard breeding.So this is the dog we have. I would like to hunt dove with her eventually, and would just like an obedient and well mannerd dog that will retrieve for fun in public.

    I might be confused about the use of the collar, but I have watched a few videos.Smart works puppy video, Bill Hillmans trafic cop, and something else I cant remember. Some information seems to contradict others. I know different people have different ways of training. What I have been doing with the leash on is applying pressure, pulling up, and saying sit. Release pressure, when but hits the ground. She is very good at sitting off the leash also In the yard, in the field without distractions. I feel she knows sit well.

    When starting with the e-collar I comanded sit and applied pressure on the leash and continous on the e-collar until butt hits ground. Butt hits ground and I take pressure of collars. Working with leash on say sit, tug up, and stim until compliance. We have had several weeks of sessions of this. is this the wrong use of the ecollar?

    I do not want to hurt my dog. I tried the collar on MYSELF up to 8, it was powerfull, I even tried the difference between holding on my arm and my finger tips, my finger tips are much more sennsitive. I had the dog wear the collar several days, and then SLOWLY worked my way up until the dog showed any reaction at all, while she was totally relaxed. It took untill an 11 before she even noticed. She has never vocalized at any level of stimulation, and seems to barely notice it. Possibly the prongs need to be longer. I figured when she was wet it would for sure get good contact but it was no different.

  10. #10
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    First of all, WOW, take a deep breath! Sounds like you have done lots of good stuff AND the pup is only 6 mo old.

    If I were you: #1 I would not take this pup off leash at public places where there may be other people - yet. A 30ft (or even longer) check cord so you can control her at all times is very important at this stage, especially in types of settings you descibe. A good technique is to make your own with a rope and put a good sized knot in it every 3ft or so. That way you can step on the rope and quickly stop her, the knots stop the rope from sliding under your foot. Yelling at and chasing the dog doesn't work, as you have unfortunately found out. The best way to attract a runaway puppy is to crouch down, call nicely in a very welcoming and enticing voice. Actually running AWAY from puppy will usually cause her to run towards you. NEVER punish her once she does come(or when you catch her), she will think punishment is for coming or being next to you, not the prior misbehavior. Do you have a "here" whistle signal? Usually 2-3 toots in rapid succession. Whistles work best in this situation, the sound carries nice and far, and does not project the anger, frustration, fear, etc that your voice does. Pair the whistle with the "here" command at short distances and add distance and distraction as she demonstrates compliance.

    As far as the E collar, definitely seems like something is wrong! Even though she is not properly conditioned to it yet and you should not be relying on it for these "runaway" episodes, you should see some physical response. Unless her bolting WAS the response! You said you had been working on sit with the collar. Does she know to sit at a distance away from you? If not, you can't teach her that when she is in a flat out run at the park, even with a functional collar. The idea of borrowing another collar and trying to start collar conditioning over again sounds like a good idea to me. Have you called Garmin and talked to them? Maybe they will replace the collar for you. Have you watched any collar conditioning videos? Might be good investment. Personally I would shelve the collar till I got more control over the pup. You may get many different answers to that portion of your post on here.

    #2 Thing I would do, find a good puppy trainer. Have you and family ever done any puppy obedience classes? Finding a good teacher and both you and wife going would be helpful. The teacher will teach both of you how to teach the dog and by observing interactions, can tell you a lot more than most of us miles away over the internet. I sign up every pup we have, even though I know all the lessons, it is imperative the pup learns to behave around others, and class full of other dog owners is far better than your "random" people you are encountering. If not puppy class, a "next step" class, or possibly a canine good citizen prep class. Ask around and get references to find a good trainer. A good place to practice off leash skills and still have some security is a fenced in tennis court with a gate you can close. Early am and late pm most such public courts are free in my area, just make sure to bring plenty of poop bags so you don't get banned for leaving deposits.

    The #3 thing I would do after #1 and #2 and you have the E collar issue all sorted out....hire, beg, or borrow some "random people" for distraction testing. Friends, relatives, neighborhood teenagers, whoever you can get. The more diversity in gender, size and appearance the better.

    Good luck sorry for such a long response, hope you get some answers that help you if mine don't.
    PS. Not nice to test collar on pup just lying in her crate, have her on leash and pair it with a leash correction. You are teaching her that stimuli is a correction, just like the leash and prong collar correction, so you can eventually fade the leash correction and stimuli is new correction.
    Last edited by dogluvah; 07-31-2014 at 09:17 PM.

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