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Influence Handling

17K views 78 replies 27 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 · (Edited)
I am new to the forum, hope I am not posting an old chewed up subject.

I am interested in finding out if anyone uses Mike Gould's & Dan Watson's influence handling technique's on their pups?

Dan, my son, worked with Mike Gould through the 80's & 90's and he appears in some of Mikes book's. Recently I got to watch Dan do some of his influence handling and was impressed on how the technique's worked.

OK, I am his Old Man so I am a little proud of the guy, but setting that aside the system works if you have several pups the same age to train. Dan usually trains the whole litter. He starts them at 12 weeks.

Does anybody out there use these handling techniques?

I have been posting short sample videos that show Dan with some 8 month old pups, the pups have not had any obedience training. The first video shows Dan walking with the pups. Scroll down in the reply's there is a second video showing how the pups work as individuals.

It's kind of hard to explain but the only word Dan uses in the field for the first 6 months is 'Hup" when he moves to birds he includes "Dead". When I trained French Brittany's I had a whole repartee along with a bunch of expletives.

Here is a link to a video that shows a pup being controled by handler movements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqVG6n1e6H0


 
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#2 ·
Never heard of this fellow Dan Watson. Someone mentioned the other fellow on the forum a couples days ago.
Not sure this program would be helpful to me. Not being a stick in the mud either. But I like my puppies to be well versed with several commands by 6 months. They also do a puppy obed class and puppy agility class by 6m.We visit nursing homes after their shots and go all sorts of places with them to socialize.??? Hup ??? IMHO
 
#3 ·
Having googled Mike Goild I am pretty confident that very few here are able to telepathically handle their dogs which is how I read his description of handling. I am always hesitant to believe or follow Anyone who's bio includes "Worlds Greatest".
Ringling Bros Regards
 
#5 ·
I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.

Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards

Bubba
 
#13 ·
A little about how influence handling works

1. Why,

In the 80's and 90's there where several shooting preserves starting up in the west. The preserves needed a supply of trained gundogs of all the major hunting breeds. At that time Mike Gould was in charge of the kennel and hunting operations at the Flying B Ranch located in central Idaho. Mike understood that his system of handling would help develop started pups ready for obedience and field work with fewer washouts than the traditional chain gang one on one system. Dan Watson was tasked with doing the handling. Here is how Mike rates my son:

I'm writing this as a personal reference for Danny Watson. Danny worked for me as a shooting dog trainer and hunting guide and also went on the road with me working dogs in the Colorado and Idaho high country.

Over the past 44 years I've seen many young aspiring trainers come and go. Danny was the best of the lot. He has a very natural style and always took everything I said to heart. He's truly one of the good ones. I featured him in two of my books, The Labrador Shooting Dog, and Plateaus of Destiny. He was also in several of the videos we shot for the Outdoor Channel on TV.
Danny is the consummate outdoorsman in many ways, and certainly has the knowledge to bring any shooting dog, of any breed, to the top of his game.

Mike Gould
Grand River
August 4th, 2014

2. In a nut shell, How.

Using the dogs natural pack instinct the handler exposes the pups "as many as 22 at once" to different environments several times a day. These environments gradually get more extreme.

During these exercises the pack bonds with its handler, the handler controls the packs distance and direction by body movement and one word Hup, "means look at me"

The "training" is done by the bold puppies showing the timid puppies how to do it. Everything from, noise, retrieving , guns, birds, water, cover, crowds, parking lots, what ever.

The pups you see in this video have had only two trigger words spoken to them in 8 months, "Hup" and "Dead" "Except when Dan's brain slips into obedience mode"

Obedience is done after the influence handling is over. Some owners want to do their own obedience training based on their needs and hunting environment, trainers like the handled pups because the can finish them quickly.

Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?






 
#15 ·
Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?
As Swack's suggested, something similar is quite common in the pointing dog world, with the object being to condition the dog to take responsibility for keeping track of his handler and stay to his fore and sides. After a time, it at least seems that the dog is anticipating the handler's moves, and he likely often is. Though I got my start in what Gould calls "influence training" bringing on pointing dogs, I've done essentially the same with my last couple retriever pups as a means of encouraging independent search.

At the time I read Gould's book, I was doing a good bit of work with cattle and, through trial and error and paying attention, bumbled into a system of spacial influence that would allow me to walk even the most rank animal into a pen, as if I controlled a powerful physical link between us. So, naturally, Gould had my attention when he said he could control a distant coyote's movements with his "influence," and we became correspondents, and I thought friends, for a time. (Was even kind enough to give me a copy of the Plateaus of Destiny book you've mentioned.) But I never could pin him down on his use of influence beyond the type I was familiar with from pointing dogs. And he apparently tired of my trying and acted as if it were a betrayal of our friendship.

Aside from that, I found his an interesting voice that, like some others that are railed here, probably would have enjoyed a greater audience and influence had he not been so dead set on pitting his perspective against the mainstream's. It's good to hear that he's alive and, hopefully, well.
 
#19 ·
Establishing a foundation



The videos an my comments here are a feeble way of trying to explain the building of a foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial.

By using pack peer pressure to get the pups to a point where the handler, with the least amount of human interaction, can evaluate each pups true inherent abilities +/-.

Most traditional training programs are fundamentally based on this same principle but, they do it one pup at a time with much human interaction. Which can sometimes cloud the evaluation.

The breeders like this system because they can get quick feed back on how their breeding program is working.

As far as birds go, Dan said, Use whatever it takes to get the true inherent prey drive established then add a 100 more for fun




.
 
#16 ·
I've seen this type of handling done personally by a trainer in Arizona named randy. He works with gsp's and would only use a couple of commands. The dogs worked in a pack and would follow by his movement. It's amazing to see a group of 30 dogs all work together. I wouldn't try it with labs but it seems to work in the upland world.
 
#22 ·
There's a train of thought which is called "ten cent thinking". That's when your "pair a dimes" are too close together.

I really don't think anyone was trying to sell anything. Take a walk with a little pup. Keep your mouth shut and just go. With an open mind a person may discover a glimpse of physical influence (or not).
 
#23 · (Edited)
Hmm probably something I'd do with 6-8wk old pups perhaps longer up til 4mt; before they go home or start formal training. Only I'd want them out in the field not following me. Nothing wrong with getting pups some courage in the field, prior to formal training. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be learning here and sit along side it though. That sort've thing pretty much stops @ 6mt when formal retriever training begins, picks back up with the first upland season, but they'd better know, Here, casting and whistle sit to flush by then, otherwise they ain't hunting with me ;).

It is well known a stiff drink will always aid in Courage training; Drunken-Works regards ;)
 
#32 · (Edited)
Better Explained Video



I think we are on the same page kind of. Just the numbers are a little different. I have a hard time trying to get whats in my head into these comments so people can understand.

The first video in the thread shows how the pups are keyed in on the handler and his moves. The second video, comment #7, shows the pups one on one with the handler. The setup for the second video was with planted pigeons. That video is meant to show their development the pups have had about 4 months of handling, not exactly sure how many birds they have seen.

What I find interesting is that these pups have reached this point by only hearing two words, "Hup and Dead". Except when boy wonder mess's up, No, heel, sit, stay, fetch, etc.

The next step is to start obedience training. He does the obedience training based on the new owners wants and needs. He uses a piece of pipe with a rope in it to do the traditional obedience work. The whistle and hand signals come as requested. He says that the obedience training is quick because all the basic bird and field work has been started. Along with Obedience comes wild birds. Mid October he sells them as Started dogs not finished Dogs I believe these dogs are all sold.

Hope this better explains my thoughts. Thanks for your patients.
 
#24 ·
Why do we want to bash a successful trainer, just because we don't understand or agree with his methods.
I wonder if Rex Carr was viewed the same way 40 years ago. Mike does not run or train for HT or FT's
But he has cut his teeth doing gundogs. Many of the dogs he got in were dogs that were broke down by other trainers.
Or Amateur's that thought they needed a E color and knew nothing about it. Mike trains dog to do what they were bread to do
"Hunt and Retrieve Birds" They run the wide open country with little or no pressure. His dogs don't spin, they don't pop, they don't freeze on birds,
and don't have no go's. We play a game and we train our dogs to play the game. If we did a break down on our success rate of dogs in our game!
We might be ashamed of ourselves. If you take the time to read Charles Morgan's book. There was a reference, to taking a dog that won the National out hunting.
And the friends were less then impressed with this newly crowned Champion. The comment was made "You don't take the Kentucky Derby winner out for a joy ride
either." We love this game and we love our dogs. But in 35 plus years of dogs and hunting, Only one time did I ever have to do a poison bird blind and less then a handful of birds retrieved from more then 100 yards
I respect Mike and his program and use a good deal of it in my training,
If I was a pro and had clients that wanted results such as Dogs on the derby list by 12 months or running all age stakes by the time their 2. This program may not be workable.
But If I own one or two dogs and enjoy training them on my schedule, and know I will have these dogs for all of their lives. Who cares If it takes me longer.
Lets give the man credit. He is successful and should be credited for that.
 
#26 ·
Why d we want to bash a successful trainer, just because we don't understand or agree with his methods.
I wonder if Rex Carr was viewed the same way 40 years ago. Mike does not run or train for HT or FT's
But he has cut his teeth doing gundogs. Many of the dogs he got in were dogs that were broke down by other trainers.
Or Amateur's that thought they needed a E color and knew nothing about it. Mike trains dog to do what they were bread to do
"Hunt and Retrieve Birds" They run the wide open country with little or no pressure. His dogs don't spin, they don't pop, they don't freeze on birds,
and don't have no go's. We play a game and we train our dogs to play the game. If we did a break down on our success rate of dogs in our game!
We might be ashamed of ourselves. If you take the time to read Charles Morgan's book. There was a reference, to taking a dog that won the National out hunting.
And the friends were less then impressed with this newly crowned Champion. The comment was made "You don't take the Kentucky Derby winner out for a joy ride
either." We love this game and we love our dogs. But in 35 plus years of dogs and hunting, Only one time did I ever have to do a poison bird blind and less then a handful of birds retrieved from more then 100 yards
I respect Mike and his program and use a good deal of it in my training,
If I was a pro and had clients that wanted results such as Dogs on the derby list by 12 months or running all age stakes by the time their 2. This program may not be workable.
But If I own one or two dogs and enjoy training them on my schedule, and know I will have these dogs for all of their lives. Who cares If it takes me longer.
Lets give the man credit. He is successful and should be credited for that.



Not bashing anyone just not impressed . Are we not allowed to disagree? Hell I watch the Lardy or Farmer videos and see stuff tha they do wrong.
Just because I train my dogs to trial doesnt mean they cant hunt. A well educated dog that has never hunted still has plenty to learn when he hits the swamp just like a college educated kid has much to learn out in the real world but he has a great head start. I find it amazing that guys that dont know much about advanced training will turn something like this into a gun dog vs competition dog thing because someone doesnt agree with their methods.
I have no problem with this method just dont agree with it and think dogs are capable of soooo much more. In Ut there is not much upland game to hunt so I dont train much for it. A waterfowl or competition dog need a much higher level of dicipline. A waterfowl or competing dog needs to be more of a team player and an upland dog needs to be a little more self employed. The later I believe needs much less training. I actually think the best way to teach a well trained retriever to hunt upland is to take him hunting. A smart retriever that has been taught dicipline and teamwork will pick up upland hunting pretty quick. If your going to walk back and forth in a field with your dog you might as well be kicking up and shooting wild birds.
 
#29 ·
" If your going to walk back and forth in a field with your dog you might as well be kicking up and shooting wild birds." Now that is funny right there, I don't care who you are ! This thread is a throwback to better days.
 
#33 · (Edited)
"It often appears as if nothing has happened at all between the handler and the dog. The better the teamwork between the handler and his dog the easier they will make the job look. Also, the view of the skills a dog uses to follow a scant trail of scent is often screened from view by dense cover, only able to be read by a skilled observer who can decipher the meaning of the wave moving through the grass and the tenor of the sounds that emit from the cattails. And only those who are willing to sign up for miles of busting through cover and slogging through mud have the opportunity to witness the feats of brilliance a great upland retriever is capable of demonstrating. Perhaps to the uninitiated upland hunting with a retriever is simple, but from my perspective there is no better example of teamwork and discipline in the retriever world than the upland dance between a hunter and his dog as they unravel the trail of a wily rooster who is playing for keeps on his home field."

Swack, very nicely stated.

The "rules" are different and it is very difficult to train for the free vs. under control "mental switch". Some say training for both diminishes each. For example and in a simplistic view, field trial bird dog trainers refrain from using too much control "cause you can't win with a dog that is looking for direction" vs. the field trial retriever trainers that know they can't win with a dog that does not understand rules/expectations and often "plays" by following direction.

Being free vs. under control are contrary mindsets. It isn't any wonder there are strong opinions on training ideas between both disciplines. However, there are areas which apply in either venue. The source often interferes with being open minded.
 
#34 · (Edited)

Being free vs. under control are contrary mindsets. It isn't any wonder there are strong opinions on training ideas between both disciplines. However, there areas which apply in either venue. The source often interferes with being open minded.


I will admit that in my younger dogs who have had primarily retriever training, upland skills have suffered compared to my older dog who was trained upland hunting first. They were too young to upland hunt last season, but I wish I had done more nose and tracking with them earlier. I'm hoping to turn that around this season, with a bunch of wild birds. At least I have my older dog to help catch them up. She was a spring pup; old enough to hunt upland her first fall, her upland skills have always been excellent. My older dog, took to the retriever game pretty well, but does have an independent streak that comes out at particular inopportune times. I think a balance can be achieved between both skill sets, but I haven't yet figured that balance. I need more of an upland dog, so we'll have to see how the late comers develop this season, they might not be seeing anymore retriever tests for awhile.
 
#35 ·
What's the point?

Question:

How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?

Sometime back I would of said "It can't be done".

In this influence handling thread I have been reading comments from all sorts of opinions, positive, negative or indifferent, even huckster. This forum stuff is really cool and I believe there is some form truth in all of the comments, especially the beer drinking ones. I have done several searches on the subject but found no references to it. I have been trying to figure out how to write something that would help the readers understand why I started this thread. My original inquiry was " Does anybody know if there are trainers that use these techniques." My son uses them but I had never really seen him do it until a short time ago when I made the videos. I have hobby trained some gundogs using the old school methods hell, we didn't even start to train until the pup was 6 months old.

I know the dogs in the videos have some rough edges and they diffidently don't have a pedigree, Dan's nephew had a 50/50 Lab-Chesapeake next to a 100% Lab bitch. Talk about certain influences. He didn't climb it but they didn't bury the fence deep enough. 12 pups

What influences me the most is that these pups have experienced noise, they have been shot over, they retriever, they come, they take direction, the stop, they hunt dead, they stay within range, they load and unload. All of that with 2 words and those words are not given until the pups are at about 4 months. The video only shows 4 dogs but there where 12 in this litter, Dan has handled as many as 22. At times he will handle pointers and retrievers at the same time.

For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.

I am not here to brag up my son I don't have to, he is honestly one that lets his actions speak louder than words. He seldom speaks unless spoken to first. Probably because I was always yapping. He doesn't have much of a web presence and his phone is not listed.

But i do think the system is worth talking about.
 
#36 ·
Question:

How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?

Sometime back I would of said "It can't be done".

In this influence handling thread I have been reading comments from all sorts of opinions, positive, negative or indifferent, even huckster. This forum stuff is really cool and I believe there is some form truth in all of the comments, especially the beer drinking ones. I have done several searches on the subject but found no references to it. I have been trying to figure out how to write something that would help the readers understand why I started this thread. My original inquiry was " Does anybody know if there are trainers that use these techniques." My son uses them but I had never really seen him do it until a short time ago when I made the videos. I have hobby trained some gundogs using the old school methods hell, we didn't even start to train until the pup was 6 months old.

I know the dogs in the videos have some rough edges and they diffidently don't have a pedigree, Dan's nephew had a 50/50 Lab-Chesapeake next to a 100% Lab bitch. Talk about certain influences. He didn't climb it but they didn't bury the fence deep enough. 12 pups

What influences me the most is that these pups have experienced noise, they have been shot over, they retriever, they come, they take direction, the stop, they hunt dead, they stay within range, they load and unload. All of that with 2 words and those words are not given until the pups are at about 4 months. The video only shows 4 dogs but there where 12 in this litter, Dan has handled as many as 22. At times he will handle pointers and retrievers at the same time.

For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.

I am not here to brag up my son I don't have to, he is honestly one that lets his actions speak louder than words. He seldom speaks unless spoken to first. Probably because I was always yapping. He doesn't have much of a web presence and his phone is not listed.

But i do think the system is worth talking about.
Here's the problem. I doubt if many Lab breeders here keep a whole litter to train. Also, the pups they train are typically being prepared for standard retriever work in HT's or FT's or waterfowl work. The "instinctive" work your son does is counter to the programs they follow which rely on control and are organized in a systematic progression of drills which are designed to prepare the dog for his role as a standard "non-slip" retriever.

I'm not saying your son's methods have no merit. Just that they are not in the mainstream of retriever training. I train in what most would consider a somewhat non-conventional way. No e-collar, no program, out in the woods and fields with my dogs under nothing but voice control as I work. I'm not aiming for a FC of even a MH. Those skills don't translate well to the upland work I love.

I currently have 4 pups here in training from my 2014 litter. They're 14 weeks old today. I'll keep one, 2 are sold but here for beginning training, and one yellow male left to sell. All are going on "nature hikes" to learn the ways of the wild. They're also getting retrieves and basic OB. They're doing well. I use more than 2 words. They know several commands and are coming along well in their training. I believe these early weeks are of the greatest value to start a pup on his way to learning. In addition to paying attention to me and following me in the field I want them to be a willing enthusiastic member of the team. I'm not sure that two words could convey all of the behaviors I think they should know by the age of 6 months. But I am a verbose guy!

Swack
 
#38 · (Edited)
UOTE]
For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.
[/QUOTE]

In another post you wrote it took 42 months for a finished dog. Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean.

All good trainers will use :influential techniques. some more than others and usually until their next phase of advancement.

What would also help to explain what you mean is seeing a finished product. Also the topic of selling gun dogs. Thats always a tough one

There re some people who could buy a FC and have difficulty picking up a duck while hunting because they are such poor handlers. and will never take the time to learn how to operate the dog.

How does a dog that is trained mostly with influence respond to a new person who knows absolutely nothing about influence. Since influence is such a big part of the art of" how influencing..

I also think the system is worth talking about ,,,,but you need to understand it,,, if you are going to talk about it,,, or it will seem like mumbo jumbo. You need to explain what your son is trying to accomplish in that water video then break it down in specifics so people can assimilate what your talking about and what they are seeing. Influenting dogs generally go sight unseen.

Thanks
Pete
 
#39 ·
UOTE]
For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.


In another post you wrote it took 42 months for a finished dog. Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean.

All good trainers will use :influential techniques. some more than others and usually until their next phase of advancement.

What would also help to explain what you mean is seeing a finished product. Also the topic of selling gun dogs. Thats always a tough one

There re some people who could buy a FC and have difficulty picking up a duck while hunting because they are such poor handlers. and will never take the time to learn how to operate the dog.

How does a dog that is trained mostly with influence respond to a new person who knows absolutely nothing about influence. Since influence is such a big part of the art of" how influencing..

I also think the system is worth talking about ,,,,but you need to understand it,,, if you are going to talk about it,,, or it will seem like mumbo jumbo. You need to explain what your son is trying to accomplish in that water video then break it down in specifics so people can assimilate what your talking about and what they are seeing. Influenting dogs generally go sight unseen.

Thanks
Pete
[/QUOTE]





Good point Pete.
I think the method has merit but going through all that up to 8 or 9 months and no obedience to me is like putting the cart before the horse.
One thing I saw that I REALLY didn't like was throwing a pigeon and letting two dogs both go after it. Although those two dogs seemed to be gentle with the bird I don't like the idea of 2 or more dogs competing for the same bird. I have seen nothing but trouble come out of that.
 
#42 ·
"Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean."

I think you fellows need to go back and read what he posted. He said they were ready to finish, retriever training and obedience.....started dogs ready for the next step, not finished.....big difference.
 
#43 ·
It's not a question of started or finished but doing one before the other. To a lot of us this is putting the cart before the horse.
To me all this influence handling the way I'm seeing it in the video without doing the obedience and other retriever work is just handicapping the dog and the trainer. The way I look at it influence handling is not a bad idea but a lot of other things could be done along with it.
To me an 8 month dog is or should be pretty much ready to go as a started dog but that includes obedience and everything else
 
#46 ·
Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced. :)

It's not like social skills such as being in the house, how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.
 
#48 ·
Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced. :)

It's not like social skills such as being in the house, how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.



Yes they can and are. It's called influence handling. I've done it with every puppy I've ever had. That's what you do with puppies. Never knew it was a formal program to be followed.
 
#50 ·
I stand corrected.

I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.

With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.


First, Influence Handling--IS NOT TRAINING.

Formal Training as we humans understand it begins at the end of the Influence handling. At the end of handling period the pups are a blank slate like they where at 12 weeks. The pups have been given minimum human commands 3 words, Hup, dead, and No. Except when the sons brain goes into obedience mode in the videos.The pups have experienced and conquered most environments and obstacles that can cause time consuming set backs in Advanced Training programs. They have conquered these obstacles under the influence of their peers, not the handler. They will except any training for what ever purpose, they are just 4 months older.​

Second, Influence Handling-- IS TRAINING.

The training happens within the pack itself. The handlers job is to slowly expose the pack to different environments that challenge the bolder pups in the pack. As the bolder pups conquer these obstacles they drag the timid pups with them this interaction emboldens the timid pups. By the end of the 4 months there are fewer timid pups or a least the seriously timid have been identified.

Range and direction, in the beginning as the handler walks the pups he has to shuffle his feet to keep from stepping on the pups. With each outing the bold pups start to venture further out pulling the timid pups with them. When the pack reaches the range the handler wants he turns around and walks the opposite direction. The influence of the pack leader (handler) moving away pulls the pack back to the handler, "AKA: Here or Come". The same holds true for moving to the side handler walks left pack moves left. Eventually the handler has total control over the pack.

These principles hold true for all obstacles, water, retrieving what ever. If one in the pack conquers an obstacle the rest will usually follow.

One of the strongest influences in the pack is what humans may call envy, or jealousy. The handler uses that influence to make retrievers really want to retrieve. Sometimes it can even replace force fetching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the pups are ready to sell at the end of the influence handling the buyers get to select their pup after participating in a few handling sessions. Reviewing the whole pack at work and looking for the best inherent breed traits allows the buyers a great chance of getting a great dog.
Picking a pup at 8 weeks is sometimes a risky business.

The breeders that use the system like it because they get instant feed back on how their program is working.


Hope this helps let me know?

Thanks for advice and comments.








 
#56 · (Edited)
I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.

With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.


First, Influence Handling--IS NOT TRAINING.

Formal Training as we humans understand it begins at the end of the Influence handling. At the end of handling period the pups are a blank slate like they where at 12 weeks. The pups have been given minimum human commands 3 words, Hup, dead, and No. Except when the sons brain goes into obedience mode in the videos.The pups have experienced and conquered most environments and obstacles that can cause time consuming set backs in Advanced Training programs. They have conquered these obstacles under the influence of their peers, not the handler. They will except any training for what ever purpose, they are just 4 months older.​

Second, Influence Handling-- IS TRAINING.
The training happens within the pack itself. The handlers job is to slowly expose the pack to different environments that challenge the bolder pups in the pack. As the bolder pups conquer these obstacles they drag the timid pups with them this interaction emboldens the timid pups. By the end of the 4 months there are fewer timid pups or a least the seriously timid have been identified.

Range and direction, in the beginning as the handler walks the pups he has to shuffle his feet to keep from stepping on the pups. With each outing the bold pups start to venture further out pulling the timid pups with them. When the pack reaches the range the handler wants he turns around and walks the opposite direction. The influence of the pack leader (handler) moving away pulls the pack back to the handler, "AKA: Here or Come". The same holds true for moving to the side handler walks left pack moves left. Eventually the handler has total control over the pack.

These principles hold true for all obstacles, water, retrieving what ever. If one in the pack conquers an obstacle the rest will usually follow.

One of the strongest influences in the pack is what humans may call envy, or jealousy. The handler uses that influence to make retrievers really want to retrieve. Sometimes it can even replace force fetching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the pups are ready to sell at the end of the influence handling the buyers get to select their pup after participating in a few handling sessions. Reviewing the whole pack at work and looking for the best inherent breed traits allows the buyers a great chance of getting a great dog.
Picking a pup at 8 weeks is sometimes a risky business.

The breeders that use the system like it because they get instant feed back on how their program is working.


Hope this helps let me know?

Thanks for advice and comments.





Sorry if you're not finding us to be a receptive audience. You asked for a discussion of the training method and that's what you're getting.

I'd like to make a couple of points regarding your post quoted above. You say that at the end of the handling period (at 8 months of age) the pups are blank slates, just like they were at 12 weeks. I must vigorously disagree with that statement. Just because there was a concerted effort to avoid "training" the pups, they were learning just the same. They have had 5 months of life experience (past the age of 12 weeks) that has formed their basis of how the world works. Without discipline (not inferring force, but as defined by Webster: "1. training that develops self-control, character, or efficiency. 2. the result of such training; orderly conduct. 3. submission to authority and control) the pups may not easily submit their will to their trainer's authority. This may result in the use of more force than would have been necessary had meaningful training been conducted at an earlier age when the pups would have been more receptive. Also, note that 12 week old puppies are entering the final month of mental development and will be much more influenced by their lessons at that time than they will at 8 months of age. Additionally, 8 months is an age at which sex hormones begin to affect the demeanor of young dogs and is an age at which they will often challenge for pack dominance. Not the best age to begin obedience training in my humble opinion.

Secondly, I question whether the bolder pups will make the more timid pups bolder. I believe the timid pups will learn to rely on the leadership of the bolder pups. In the absence of the bolder pup's leadership the timid pups will not be able to function with self-confidence. I think it's necessary to take the timid pups on their own hikes so they can develop self-reliance. A poor student doesn't gain knowledge and self-esteem by copying off of the A-student's paper. He needs to learn to do the work himself!

Finally, is this a discussion about what method is best to train 22 puppies at a time as gundogs or about what method is best to obtain the greatest potential from a puppy? That context alone may be a huge factor in this discussion.

Swack
 
#52 ·
First, I don't see any disrespect in trying to clarify a point...

I guess I am confused on the term "influence handling" given that it is explained as "not training" and then "training". Is the context to when this changes the pack mentality or the handlers involvement?

I think most people who have any experience raising more then one dog from puppyhood (successfully) are familiar with the pack mentality and often monopolize it (putting themselves as alpha as I am sure your son does later on). I see the benefit in your son's method for selection of a 12 week old pup from a breeder that has participated in the protocol but from my experience that 6-12 week span of learning, development, and bonding in a dog is one that I would like critical involvement in. That is my own personal experience and preference, thus I personally would not select a pup from a breeder that followed this particular process.
 
#53 ·
They're extremely smart, eager-to-please animals that will eventually figure out what you want.
For those of us aspiring to the pinnacle of a sport and don't want to risk the dog living long enough to figure it out, we formalize training early.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed with the video.
Put some chicken nuggets in your pocket and they'll follow you anywhere.
 
#54 ·
That type of "training" is what I did with my first Lab when I was 12 years old and had no clue how to really train a dog . My current pup is 7 months old and is steady ,does quadruple marks on land and water, sits , comes on both voice and whistle , floating decoy and spinning wing decoy proofed . She is now picking up hand signals and loves boats and gunfire . Seems like alot of wasted time to me .
 
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