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Thread: police dog stabbed

  1. #31
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    birddog22, You got that RIGHT!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by birddog22 View Post
    That dog is a sworn officer. It"s no different that stabbing a "human" officer.

  2. #32
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    I agree with the officer he was going to the aid of his partner. The dog was doing his job. If the suspect would not have ran he and the dog would both be alive today. I would have done the same thing.

  3. #33
    Senior Member jrrichar's Avatar
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    Henlee: I see the point in your argument. Human life must we weighed over that of canine. To your question above, I think context is always needed, although in the eyes of the law you would be arrested for manslaughter. Do I think some would risk this, yes. Someone brought up hurricane Katrina as an example, people literally drowned to death rather then leave their domesticated animals. Most of the time firefighters have to ensure people that they can take their pets otherwise they would risk staying in a fire zone! Like many on this forum it is not a black and white for me to say human life over canine and I work in human medical research!

    Humans are flawed, many can commit horrible crimes. Young children and animals are inherently innocent and/or do things purely out of instinct. There is a special place in hell for adults who commit crimes against these two groups. Dogs are never manipulators, liars, criminals, or inherently try to cause personal harm for no reason. If someone was to stab my dog and I had access to a weapon I would use it, knowing that I would likely become a felon and go to jail (ending my career). Most of the people that have field retrievers would probably do the same. We don't invest obscene amounts of time, effort, and money into something that we don't take as sacredly as life itself.

    Others feel very differently about their dogs. Kenneled in the backyard as an outside only dog that is walked once a month comes to mind. I am sure if their dog was shot they would view it more as loss of personal property. I do not view my dog as property (even though the law does). My car is property, I like it, but if someone slammed into the side of it I would not be devastated. If someone accidentally dented it, I probably wouldn't even be particularly mad. However, if someone hit my dog...you better run and run fast! My dog is my family period. A attack on her is one on me. I know the consequences given the current law, but would gladly violate them knowing the consequences.

    You fight for what you personally hold dear. For me that is my family, which includes my dog, and close friends. Everything else is just stuff.
    Janell Richardson

  4. #34
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Well said Janell

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    Quote Originally Posted by mja9346 View Post
    I have worked around K9 officers for several years. I do not know all of the facts but applaud the dog for doing his job. Even after being stabbed the dog did not let go. I cannot say every dog would do the same in that situation. As far as the K9 officer who shot the man, many times when the "off command" is given the dog does not simply just let go. His adrenalin is pumping, usually the suspect is screaming loudly which makes it difficult for the dog to hear. Many times the handler has to grab the dog and pull him off while giving the command. In that case, the officers life would be in danger to get that close to a suspect who is armed with a knife.
    This is good info to know. I'm sure there's alot more to the story than we've been told in the article.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    As to your final statement, I am not so sure that human life isn't over valued in today's society. After all, we are the most common large animal in the world and our population continues to boom at the expense of just about every other species. I'll state flat out that my dog's life is of more value to me than some unknown person who may or may not be misbehaving. If we didn't value our dogs more than human life in general, none of us would have dogs. We would, instead take the money we spend on them and donate it to some or all of the numerous groups who are actually working to save human lives and make life better for humans, and the time we spend training and working our dogs, we would devote to improving the human condition.

    Not to put too fine a point on it , but if YOU were attempting to kill (or harm) my dog, I can assure you that your life would be in question.
    Do you listen to yourself talk? That is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about. The really frightening thing about it, is that you think this point of view is ok.

    As to your last statement....that's just a downright mean and nasty thing to say. It obviously wasn't necessary. You certainly don't need to agree with me, in my point of view that I think it would have been preferable to find a non-lethal way to end the particular conflict in question (if it were possible), we are all adults having a discussion. Not all of us will agree. However, that kind of talk is just wacky. Dial it down.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    That only happens in the old Roy Rogers or Hoppalong Cassidy movies. The reality is police and those of us that have been trained on firearms self defense, are trained that when the decision to discharge our firearm is made, it is a shoot to kill, empty your gun situation. That's why people are shot six to ten times, it's training. You don't try to shoot a guy in the arm or leg to see if he stops.
    In the "olden days" when 6 shot revolvers were the standard sidearm of most law
    enforcement across the country, even double action was slow firing and then police became outgunned" by the bad guys. Semi-auto sidearms are now the duty weapon of most police agencies with upwards to a clip of 15 and perhaps one in the chamber. One is taught to fire their weapon until the threat is diminished. Now I suppose if one watched enough TV (some bad guys fire their weapons sideways LOL) and in the heat of total chaos (many arm chair folks and Monday morning quarterbacks) have never experienced , well perhaps it would be a perfect world. I assure you folks it just aint..Not on a crusade as there are defects in any profession, but considering that there are estimated to be upwards to 800,000 law enforcement personnel in the United States , it isn't too bad a record for misbehavior or perhaps unjustified shootings. I frankly don't know why anyone would want the job as a police officer in this day and age. I have a grandson who is seeking jobs in the field now, and think as a college graduate he could seek another line of work. I spent 32 years as a cop, 3 years during that time as a K-9 handler in a urban setting. Several dangerous situations with my K-9 partner, one a firefight with jewelry store armed robbers, who without hesitation would kill my K-9 partner. Anyway my two cents on the topic and agree with John, back to my retrievers before it gets into potus...
    Earl Dillow

  8. #38
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
    Do you listen to yourself talk? That is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about. The really frightening thing about it, is that you think this point of view is ok.

    As to your last statement....that's just a downright mean and nasty thing to say. It obviously wasn't necessary. You certainly don't need to agree with me, in my point of view that I think it would have been preferable to find a non-lethal way to end the particular conflict in question (if it were possible), we are all adults having a discussion. Not all of us will agree. However, that kind of talk is just wacky. Dial it down.

    I realized some years ago that I do not believe in the inherent value of human life. The lives of many humans are of value to me, but the lives of many others are not. In fact, realistically, society has come to that conclusion too. One can legally use deadly force in some instances to protect property. Game wardens in Africa can shoot to kill to protect certain animals (Gorillas being the first one that comes to mind). Millions have been killed for ideas. I have been around BIG male dogs all my life and have had to dive into more than one dog fight to keep my dog from being injured. When something or someone is attempting to harm a member of my family (and such are my dogs) I tend to become a lion and will put my entire 6'2" 230lbs into action. If I thought I couldn't save my family member without using deadly force (be it a gun, blade, club, or my bare hands) whatever, or whoever is doing the attacking will be in real danger. About 30 years ago my brother made the mistake of interfering with me defending my dog and after I slammed him into the wall we didn't speak for about 2 years. DON'T mess with my dogs or with me if I am in the defense of them or my family.

    Let me repeat, I don't believe in the inherent value of human life. Perhaps that's why I try to behave myself, be productive, and not give folks a reason to make that judgement about me.

    Sorry you were offended, but I was making a point. I have close, lifelong friends that would go instantaneously from friend to mortal enemy if they were intentionally attempting to harm a member of my family (and as I said, such are my dogs).
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  9. #39
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    My religion teaches me that human beings are made in God's image and are of inestimable worth for that reason.

    That means I am of inestimable worth to God. That means, self-defense is not immoral (or unChristian.)

    Stay with me here... I'm about to make a leap in logic but one I think is reasonable. Someone who wantonly kills and tortures animals has to have a very warped view of the worth of all sensate beings. (We've had a horrible situation here where a crazy man was "adopting" dogs from the shelter and decapitating them.) Such people are threats to human life. (The crazy man will be locked up once he's declared incompetent.) Someone killing or maiming my dog in front of me is a threat to me. He is, in effect, going through my dog to get to me.

    I will stop him. If I (happily) have a gun... I would use it. (I have a concealed carry permit and so I am saying that I know I'd be trying to kill him, not wound him.) If I didn't have a gun, I'd do what I could without it knowing I'd probably end up very injured. (But again, how does letting my dog die keep me safe?)

    So I think it's possible to hold a very high view of the value of human life, while at the same time justifying taking human life to protect our dogs, i.e., when it could legitimately mean I'm protecting myself or other humans. It is a matter of the context, of course.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mja9346 View Post
    I have worked around K9 officers for several years. I do not know all of the facts but applaud the dog for doing his job. Even after being stabbed the dog did not let go. I cannot say every dog would do the same in that situation. As far as the K9 officer who shot the man, many times when the "off command" is given the dog does not simply just let go. His adrenalin is pumping, usually the suspect is screaming loudly which makes it difficult for the dog to hear. Many times the handler has to grab the dog and pull him off while giving the command. In that case, the officers life would be in danger to get that close to a suspect who is armed with a knife.
    I have a question about this. I've had some fleeting contact with the schutzhund folks and they have to work on "OUT" the way we work on "FETCH". It could be argued that they are operating their dogs in a very artificial environment... but if you've ever seen a German or Czeckoslovian bred GSD who is a Schutzhund I compete, I can tell you... the dog sees nothing artificial about it.

    I believe, in this instance, once the dog was stabbed, he was fighting for his life. There should be no expectation that this dog would OUT. However... I would expect that police dogs who interact with the public would be under better control than you describe. When a subject is down and passive (as much as he can be while curled up and protecting his head and screaming) then that dog should OUT on command.

    Am I wrong?

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