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So much for the "Honor System" Master Entries

12K views 51 replies 32 participants last post by  RookieTrainer 
#1 · (Edited)
MTRC asked people to give club members the first 30 minutes of opening, 9:00-9:30 to guarantee workers for the test. 120 dogs entered by 9:03. This is some bull#@%* !!!! The ONLY test that was actually close to home under 2hrs. I guess they were all club members ?
 
#2 ·
Middle Tennessee always has a well run test with plenty of MEMBER help. It ,in my opinion, was just good manners to have the decency to do as asked by the club to insure that the event could go as usual. To offset the difference in the normal help and what may be coming It would seem to me that the ones that jumped the gun should PROVIDE the help to put on the test. :evil:
 
#3 ·
I've seen 1,000's of posts on this subject but haven't commented since I haven't chaired or run a HT in years. But I can't understand why, if clubs truly want to prevent their workers/members from being shut out from entering, they can't simply take advantage of the fact that paper entries are accepted. Its your event for God's sake. I would welcome this situation as it would help fix the problem of securing help, which is the other gripe I read about constantly.

If I'm the event secretary, with my finger on the EE button ready to open electronic entries, with 25 paper entries from my workers (next to their assignments) already in my hand before opening the event, they're in.

I'm sure someone will set me straight.
 
#8 ·
a cut and paste from the EE site.....


  1. Opening your event for entries. Finalizing the event will open the entries and create the postcards that are mailed to everyone on your list. The postcards are .85ea - we pay postage. The postcards have all pertinent info regarding your event and instructions on how to get a premium online or how to request a paper premium; we list a phone number and email address for theses requests. We will send a paper premium to anyone who requests one and no charge to the club. You will still need to send a premium to the AKC. You can print the premium off of the website and mail it to them. Entry Express is the only source for the premium and entry info. You cannot create your own premium on your club website, etc... You can put a link to the premium that exists on Entry Express. The Entry Express process works because it's a single source of information for your event and multiple sources result in handler confusion and frustration.
  2. Receiving entries. Entries will begin to come in online and via snail mail. You can monitor the entries online as they come in. Mailed entries are added to the system when they arrive. All checks are also made payable to Entry Express. If the club does receive an entry by mistake, they can fax or email it to us so that we can enter it in the system.

so even if you mailed a stack of paper entries to EE, they would enter them by hand the morning the office opens after you opened the event.
Sally Quickfinger would still have her pro's 30 dogs entered and you club members will still be sitting in the sun swatting flies off of the worker lunch and bitching about it.
 
#11 ·
Basic population biology: Exponential growth of a population eventually leads to a crash when the necessary resources are depleted.

Like with the crickets in my basement.

I'm really glad I don't have a dog to title right now, because all anyone seems to be able to do about this is sit back and wait, and get ready to sweep up the carcasses.

What a mess!
 
#32 ·
Basic population biology: Exponential growth of a population eventually leads to a crash when the necessary resources are depleted.

Like with the crickets in my basement.

What a mess!
This might very well be the case. After all, it's hard enough to get folks to sign up for specific volunteer duties when they actually have a dog entered.
 
#12 ·
The omission of a time zone in the premium may have partially contributed to this issue. The field I work in is highly sensitive to time zones so I understand the importance. It may have helped to put 900 AM CDT (if indeed that is the time zone you were referring to) in the premium, especially since the central/eastern time zone splits the state. Something to consider in the future.

Best of luck with the test and I hope you have the workers necessary.
 
#13 ·
#3 is spot on with a couple of clarifications :
Mailed entries cannot be accepted before (1) the event is approved and (2) the judges panel is approved.
Many clubs technically violate the entry process by posting on EE the premium before the event is approved and again before the judges are approved.
My thinking is mailed entries are great after the event and judges approval.

This area has been discussed before here but many tend to start giving their opinions rather than what the " book" says
These viewpoints are mine and as an experienced hts

Should this madness continue with apps mining websites, lines of dogs being entered by 1 person and so on ; I for one will encourage our group to not use EE and return to the mail system with the AKC site as the official advertisement
Dk
 
#14 · (Edited)
"The Event is Open when the AKC approves the event. It has nothing to do with when the HTS pulls the trigger on EE. "
Wrong. EE relies on the HT Sec'y to open the event for entries. It's a 2 step process - so it can't be "accidentally" opened. There have been at least 3 events this fall that were opened before the event had full approval from AKC as EE currently has no way of validating the premium approval.

[Editing: Perhaps I misread SwampCollie. SC seems to be suggesting that the sec'y receive certain entries by mail before opening the event on EE. In effect having a "private" opening date followed by a "public" opening. Not sure how that would fly w/ AKC as the regs requiring a uniform opening date have been deleted. But certainly the sec'y can accumulate all the dogs to be run by members/workers and enter them in a block via EE's "VIP" program immediately after opening the event. Same effect, no conflict.]

#13 is correct. Don't like the EE system, don't use it.
 
#15 ·
"The Event is Open when the AKC approves the event. It has nothing to do with when the HTS pulls the trigger on EE. "
Wrong. EE relies on the HT Sec'y to open the event for entries. It's a 2 step process - so it can't be "accidentally" opened. There have been at least 3 events this fall that were opened before the event had full approval from AKC as EE currently has no way of validating the premium approval.

#13 is correct. Don't like the EE system, don't use it.
You kind of missed the point. The AKC may have approved an event and judging panel (Therefore the event is Open) months before the HTS opens EE. So, if a savvy handler watches the AKC's website, they can get a paper entry to the HTS long before EE has even been enabled for the event.
 
#20 ·
I personally don't think anything is going to be changed. Why? Akc is doing just fine and is benefiting by all the entries. Demand and popularity is great. There is no incentive for them to change. As to people going to other venues, I think that is going to happen. But does it bother the AKC? No. I don't think the shift is going to be great enough to make a difference. I'll certainly be looking, just so I can play. It may really shift more to field trials which is great also. But not for me.

Sad situation but true I think.

Sue Puff
 
#22 · (Edited)
Any club holding a Hunting Test shall name a Hunting Test Secretary who shall be a member of the club. The premium list for licensed or member club Hunting Tests shall designate the Hunting Test Secretary as receiving entries.
Don't confuse EE rules with the AKC's rules. The Handlers, HTS and Club are required to abide by the Rules of the AKC. Handlers are in no way "required" to use EE. (Yup, it's going to make life more difficult again for the HTS. You would be essentially taking out the AKC rule book and beating them over the head with it.)

If a handler hand delivers an entry, or sends it via courier to the HTS, they are required to accept it. Yeah, we're back to the "shoulds" verses "Shall" but the point is the same. The HTS carries the responsibilty for accepting entries, not EE. EE serves as an agent only. They are not the HTS.


The simple fact is the current rule book and the policies of EE were not conceived with a limited entry stake in mind. As a result a select few have been taking advantage of the system at the expense of the clubs and majority of handlers.
 
#26 ·
Great dialogue here! Yes i believe once the event is approved and judges approved , mail entries can be accepted to hts and ee. If a club checks the $25 box for ee to handle the paperwork then upon akc approval EE must then open the event ( some agreement made when this was setup I understand)
If a club handles the paperwork they then can say when the event opens on Ee. So lets pretend Akc approved an event today, the club handled the pw and had a Dec. test Then from now to the club opening on EE we could do mail entries.
How all that works to the hts who knows.
Above is my understanding of a way to work

However ( using the above sept approval date) if I got your stuff POst marked August 31 well i wouldnt use it

For those clubs that made an error and opened/ filled before Akc approval- likely an honest mistake and a 2nd error gets much tougher to explain. Since I'm not the brightest bulb I will admit to that same error a few years ago corrected the next Am with EE. Her laugh said your not the first one.

While i have the chair lets remember for the umpteenth time EE nor the MNRC caused this mess yet we peons live with the aftermath. I smile each time i hear how the AKC is getting fat off us retriever folks. Do the math 37k entries at 3.50 a pop is 130k. Remind me what you do with that! The coonhounds do 700k and the beagles do 600k entries. We're the distance 3rd at 37k entries. Ok so our ft friends do 37k entries also.
Finally I hear all this blabber about how we are growing - folks the master entries are flat at 24k a year for a while now. I dont have inside info. The numbers are printed in the RN and thats the only place our retriever history is really stored.

I know most have heard this before, i know its old news however it bears repeating
My view
Dk
 
#29 ·
Really what needs to be done is a rule change to allow preferential entries to workers. AKC tracking trials had to make such a change because of lack of workers. Simply talk to or submit an idea to one of the 5 people on the rules comittee. These things take a little while but can be done. The Rules Advisorary Committee submits the proposals to the AKC board who votes on them. I am sure the clubs would like to set aside 10% of the entries for workers or some other idea.
 
#30 ·
I think we will see more clubs not renew their MN memberships and this whole stupid mess goes away. What good is it to be a MN club if you limit entries? Wasn't the whole reason you joined to be a MN club, to attract entries???
I don't see how AKC can like this -- clubs are getting FEWER ENTRIES because of limits.
I'm really glad I won't have my pup ready to run in master for a few years. I'm hoping all this baloney is solved by then.
 
#31 ·
Took a little over 45 min. to fill up. Members shouldn't have had any trouble entering. By my phone it opened at 8:02 and was full at 8:48 CST. If you are a member and didn't get in you drug your feet and should definitely know by now that's not going to get you in a master.
 
#34 ·
Right, because we KNOW EVERYONE has a computer or smartphone with them at all times and EVERYONE has a job that allows them to STOP WHAT THEY ARE DOING to enter a hunt test. Yeah, those workers that dragged their feet for 45 minutes DESERVE to be cut out of the test.
 
#33 ·
I guess they were all club members ?
More likely they never saw the note in the premium. They saw it was open and entered.

I never read the premium--especially if I have been there before--and in this case, reading it after the fact, I am barely noticed it as the third note in the Welcome Statement which is generally always boilerplate and never would have seen it if I was just casually scanning it.
 
#37 ·
Yes Entry Express displays the entries in the order they are entered until the draw. all you have to do is simply look at the dogs entered 30 minutes after opening and note what the last dog entered is. any dogs entered after that will be below those dogs till the "draw". simple enough to do...

I would think the HTS or HC would know who the workers are....
 
#38 ·
Reread this whole subject, and see the focus is going everywhere but what should be really looked at. People are blaming the secretary, the handlers, EE, paper system but nobody is looking at how you qualify for the MN. That needs to be seriously looked at. I see dogs that have passed the Master National 7 times and they are trying to requalify. Do you really think a dog that has passed the Master National seven times needs to requalify ? How about you pass the MN once you don’t need to requalify , that would open up at least 1/3 of the entries. There is an argument that the Master National has made Master test is very popular, I disagree. It has become a “Cliché Club” of the same dogs and same handlers entering every year. With the new handlers, untitled dogs, getting frustrated and leaving the hunt test program.

After the dog that passed the MN 6-7 or 8 times is done, during that time how many people got frustrated and quit the hunt test game all together? Then there is no new blood to replace it. Look at the Junior, senior entries, look how low they are these days compared to 5-6 years ago.

I am an AKC hunt test judge and one of the biggest appeals of the hunt test was the comradery and family atmosphere. That has been gone for years, if don’t believe me ? Stand at the line as a Master judge, you hear and see everything. People are so focused on the qualifying for Master National they lose the reason we are all there. To have fun and enjoy time with our dogs. I have even run tests where I hear from the judge “ I know everybody is getting ready for the MN, this test will let you know if you are ready “
 
#41 ·
I have been some what blessed here in Montana, the few clubs we have that hold AKC events don't have their master flights full but again we are in the middle of no where.
 
#44 · (Edited)
I think you just call EE, ask for the list of everybody who signed up during the worker period; send them an e-mail informing them which stake they are assigned to with job description, ask any Pros with mulitple dogs, how many bird throwers and marshals they are bringing with their group. Then of course THANK THEM all for volunteering to work the event ;)
 
#48 ·
I agree you have 120 + people fighting for the chance at the same orange ribbon, and only 6 so far that want a shot at the only Blue of the weekend. This doesn't apply to the HT pro's but for you OH give it a shot, a greenie or better yet a placement will feel so much better than any orange you ever got... This would be a no brainer for me..
 
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