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Hypothetical : Walking on Blind in Master test

35K views 153 replies 51 participants last post by  Furball 
#1 ·
Hypothetical question :)

You are a Master judge. First series. Dog comes to the line and picks up the triple in a clean and unremarkable fashion - a credible job, no problems.

Lines up for the blind, handler sends dog, dog leaves....at a walk. Handler proceeds to handle the dog very cleanly, work is precise, takes just a few whistles to pick up the blind, but the dog is walking, and at most, speeds up to a trot when he winds the bird at the very end. Handler is quiet and calm. The dog doesn't look beat down or scared, it is a young to middle aged dog (not an old timer), and ran at a normal pace for marks.

How do you judge that?

NO this is not my dog...haha
 
#46 ·
Would you want to hunt with this dog? Would anyone other than the owner want to hunt with this dog after watching the blinds? It's painful to watch lack of desire (if that is what was going on). As a judge, you should judge accordingly.

To the OP... How was this judged?
 
#47 ·
I would probably rather hunt with this dog than one that was noisy and/or chomped birds. I have seen these pass in Master too.
 
#51 ·
From folks that I have been around, that see a LOT of dogs,,, It sounds like puppy buying is a crap shoot, despite the breeding..

I am interested... do some of you feel that that sire would only ever produce piggy dogs, based on what you see at 1 test??
Could piggy come from training experiences?
Could the piggy come from the bitch side?

Would I hunt with a dog like this........ A good marking dog, that is compliant ,,IMHO,,would be a pleasure to spend the day in the blind with. The dog is there to conserve game.. regardless of speed.. I can not believe a judge would zero the dog for style, given the dog in the example..

How many times on this board do folks say, "You have to see the whole picture."
 
#52 · (Edited)
Has anyone seen FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) run? I like a dog that goes slow on blinds. Then I can think in front of them, like my Rowdy. But I also like one that returns promptly.
Some train this slowness on blinds, like Jerry P. I am told.
I have a friend that had a slow dog that earned about 2500 points in hrc. Which was quite an accomplishment.
I saw Dave Rorem run his truck load off dogs. He had one that was very slow on blinds. He didn't seem concerned about it.
But I haven't seen this dog run.
 
#55 ·
WOW!!

I totally dislike a dog that walks on blinds whether in training or at a test!!

I want to own, train and judge a dog that wants to get the bird. If I have a dog that is very slow on blinds I AM very concerned about it. Either my dog has insufficient desire to play the game or I screwed up that dogs training!!

If you are so slow to be able the handle the dog, then why punish the dog to not want to retrieve with great desire by training that way!! I do not accept the argument that slow dogs are easier to handle if you have to beat a dog down to get that slowness. If you don't have to beat the dog down to get the slowness but it is genetic then excuse, me - I don't want the dog!!

Why do judges reward dogs that walk? Are they not penalizing the dog that is fast, stylish, full of desire, and often full of talent? Can they not read the rest of the Rule book beyond " Marking is of Primary Importance?" What happened to the "pleasing to the eye" concept? Sometimes high points are not "quite the accomplishment" that is perceived!.

I would not knowingly buy a pup from such a walking dog. Do I really know whether it was due to training or the dog's proclivity to react that way to typical training? In any case I would not gamble on such a poor win!

Show me where the rule book says we want dogs that don't want to be there and act that way. What duck hunter wants a dog that doesn't enjoy the hunt?

C'mon folks-let's not excuse the piggys!
 
#54 ·
Corey-

In fact I don't know the dog if you meant that literally. I do have a short anecdote to contribute. I was running a NAHRA Intermediate. Long story made short ... my dog was slower and slower on the land double. The entire field was cut briars. She didn't falter but she was slow and so the judges put her out ... only 1 of the 8 running that failed. I volunteered to run her as test dog for the water series. Marks were good and on the way to the blind, she put up a goose that had been nesting on a island that was on the line to the blind. When the goose took flight, she kept trucking and did fine. The 7 dogs in contention all couldn't get past the scent on the island. So ... the failed test dog was the only dog that passed that day.
 
#64 ·
No no by "that dog"I meant the ones we have all seen, not one that is walking on one blind or due to conditions, not a specific dog. You know when you see them they are pigs and no more want to do what they are doing than you want to stick a pin in your eye. They are only doing it because they have been taught to do so. That is far different from a dog that wants and loves to do it. Want, love, and desire on the part of the dog is a huge part of style.
 
#57 ·
Huge difference between going with purpose in a controlled manner and walking. Does the dog leave directly when ordered....does the dog take direction crisply....does the dog and handler work as a team. Does the momentum pick up through the blind....That to me is pleasing..... doesn't have to be lightning fast jsut with purpose. Now...crawling and reluctance to take direction...is the mark of a true pig.
 
#58 ·
I have seen Pirate run and both my son and I have Pirate pups and I will not stfu.
 
#60 ·
My judging philosophy has changed over the years.

That evolution is detailed in three articles that Terry Rotschafer and I wrote for Retrievers Online: Judging the High Roller, The Callback Process, and Picking A Winner.

As a result, in the past year, I have dropped dogs that exhibited poor style. I have also dropped dogs one or more placements for poor style, and once out of the placements entirely.

This is what Paul Sletten wrote as a comment to the article: Judging the High Roller

An obvious concernwhen handling and judging a High Roller is missing a piece of cover because youhave time for one whistle and not three. Perhaps people could be judging moreon style and the type of dog they want to watch or to breed. Just because a doghas one hunt and some other dog was perfect, doesn’t mean the perfect dog hasto win! Perhaps the dog that showed more heart and courage and style is the dogwe would rather own, breed to, etc.
This is what the Rule Book says on page 47

It is recommended that a Judge should have clearly in mind, and for each test, precisely what type of performance he expects, since such work will merit a high rating in his records. Then he should observe, and record, in what respects and to what degrees the performances by individual dogs have either exceeded or fallen short of that previously established “par,’’ in each test. Hence, when the stake is completed, several Judges will arrive at their final decision about placings on the basis of which dog, relatively, did better work than another in each of the several series.
Moreover, the Rule Book mentions "style" eight different times.

I don't think that dogs that walk exhibit "style"
 
#63 ·
I can forgive a slow blind if (and only if) the marks were full of style; after all it may be a wise thing for trainers to anticipate judges, who for whatever reason, set blinds which penalize the fast stylish dogs. If we set tests which allow for grand expressions of style, the reasons to train or tolerate a sluggish performance will evaporate.
 
#66 · (Edited)
Since we're telling stories, I had a young dog go out on a blind for "showing no desire" The dog went, but got tripped on a goose decoy, got rattled, lost momentum, she recovered and got the blind. After Really nice marks. I was pretty disgruntled, but I volunteered to run test dog for the next series, sit to flush. It was pretty nice to watch my uninterested dog, jumping into cover well over her head, flushing a covey of quail, before flushing the bird that had gotten out of it's box. She sort've sat while the gunner shot multiple times, winging it. I released her before she broke; to retriever the bird, which she again flushed, chased and caught in the air, right about the time the judge caught up enough to call no bird. Might've muttered while leaving; Isn't that's the dog you put out for lack of style? Several other contestants might've been commenting loudly as we left the line TOO BAD THAT DOG DOESN'T have any DESIRE ;). I still get those comments, every-time I go run that test, usually after she breaks :?.
 
#67 ·
As a judge, handler, and owner, I want a dog that shows style on marks and blinds.
 
#68 ·
Agreed!! And that should go for all breeds, correct? I have heard people (judges) say, "well, that's the breed for ya"...I don't agree with this. The standard is breed blind...there are no "Unless its a _____(choose a breed), then they can walk to the bird"...
 
#69 ·
I have and do own both types of dogs mentioned in this thread, dogs that walk to the blind and dogs that flat out ears back run. The dogs that walks to the blind was one of my first dogs and I did that to the dog through improper training.

Through time and experience I have become a better trainer and more importantly a better handler who can read a speeding bullet. It is a true joy to watch a young dog run a blind with a much enthusiasm as they run for a flier.

In regards to the OP I do consider speed/style a quality that should be judged. I would rather watch and or judge a young dog with passion run a blind even if it takes a few more whistles than watch a "piggy dog" line a blind on a walk(painful).

And. I still run my piggy dog, I just run her with understanding, patience and all the time wondering how she would've turned out if i was a little wiser.
 
#72 ·
I have dropped dogs for style. However its not always the dogs fault. Training methods often dictate much of what people read as style. Pirate was brought up in this thread. I've watched Jerry train dogs for years and if you pay attention you will see that most of Jerry's dogs run blinds in the same manner. Jerry has a standard he implements in his training program requiring precision and control. His dogs run in accord with that. I wouldn't call their performance poor style. I've also trained a few Pirate dogs, have one in for FF right now, and they are hardly piggy. Some may be soft, but not piggy. Every dog is different and as a judge you have to have enough dog experience to see what is going on with the dog. Read the rule requirements again and apply it to the dog in front of you. Experienced judges know the difference.

/Paul
 
#73 ·
Thanks Paul....wish more judges saw the difference between a dog's concern with being a part of a team and being deliberate as compared to one that doesn't want to do the work. Would much rather judge a dog that was on line and working as a team player than a speed freak that just wants to run and is no where near the line.

Gar
 
#74 ·
Does "Fast" always define style?

What about a dog that is slow,deliberate and very compliant?

Am I wrong in my opinion that those traits are stylish to me?

Isnt style very subjective??
 
#75 ·
Thanks Paul and Lpgar for saying more succinctly than I was able to get in print. I wish I could find the video of Cha Cha and Lyle winning the SRS Championship last year. She has won a bunch of money for Lyle. I am guessing about $50,000. Anyone would be proud to own her. She is an excellent marker and runs blinds under control but she is not fast.

Can anyone find the video of the last series of the
2013 SRS Crown Championship?
 
#76 · (Edited)
Here is what the FT Rule Book says about style

(7) Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance at trials, for example: by the gaiety of his manner in approaching the line, by his alertness on-line, by his eagerness and speed on retrieves, by his water-entry, by his pick-up of birds and by his return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance; together with ability to mark, they constitute the most important factors for placings in Derby Stakes. In all stakes, in respect to “style,’’ a desired performance includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast-determined departure, both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the “fall,’’ (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. Dogs may be credited for outstanding and brilliant exhibitions of style, or they may be penalized for deficiencies in style — the severity of the penalty ranging from a minor demerit, to elimination from the stake in extreme cases.

Doesn't sound like walking on blinds constitutes good style
 
#77 ·
But isnt it subjective? Isnt it an opinion?

what does the rule book mean when it states something is a MODERATE fault?

Some might look at a dog as Piggy... maybe I would see it as compliant,deliberate..
Now, I will say Others, have MUCH more experience than me watching Dogs..,,but real world,, you you will have various differences of opinion as to what defines style. And what I read the rule book states,, lack of attributes the rule book defines style with is a MODERATE fault,,but left up to Judges to determine if it considers the performance passable with some moderate faults.. Its subjective..isnt it?


Some might, if you dont agree with them,, say something like,, "well,,you have a lot to learn".... Others on the opposite side of the coin,, might think some views are over judicious.
 
#78 ·
Hank is very fast and Rowdy is slower on blinds, which I like. I timed them on a channel blind (time to bird). Hank was 1:40 and Rowdy was 2:10 minutes. So, is Rowdy not stylish?
 
#79 · (Edited)
Ted beat me to it by quoting the Rule Book. It really does paint a very clear picture of what Style is! Why do people think it is excusable to not display!

Surely we all know when a dog is walking, trotting or galloping(or loping or cantering!). 95% of todays dogs gallop on marks. If they don't almost all judges begin to note the dog's style. Whether they rule minor, moderate or major fault varies widely and depends on many factors such as repeated infractions and degree of infraction. But no where does it say that lack of style on Blinds is excusable!!

I for one am not buying this "deliberate" excuse. LPGAR hinted at the problem when he used the term "concerned". Why is the dog concerned? It's because he has been pressured to be afraid of making a mistake and thus he walks or trots. He is not thinking " I will be a team partner" and walk slow so my handler can intervene!!!

Many of us can stop our dog sharply on one sit whistle on the way to a flyer mark. The dog turns and waits for direction. Dogs do not have to walk/trot to be in control!! I do agree that we should not excuse poor control or avoiding the test just because the dog is stylish. But I don't agree we can excuse lack of style just because poor style dog A won this or that or has X points.

A lot of judges deviate from the Rule book and its intent"



In summary:

Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance,
including:

· Gaiety of manner, including when approaching the line
· Alertness on line
· Eagerness and speed on retrieves
· Water entry
· Pick-up of birds
· Return with birds

Style makes for a pleasing performance, evidenced by:

· Alert and obedient attitude
· Fast determined departure, both on land and into water
· Aggressive search for the fall
· Prompt pick-up
· Reasonably fast return

Cheers

PS. Wayne- Speed is not the only criteria-read the other traits! Does he walk or trot on marks? Does he walk or trot on blinds?
 
#128 ·
Ted beat me to it by quoting the Rule Book. It really does paint a very clear picture of what Style is!
In summary:

Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance,
including:

· Gaiety of manner, including when approaching the line
· Alertness on line
· Eagerness and speed on retrieves
· Water entry
· Pick-up of birds
· Return with birds

Style makes for a pleasing performance, evidenced by:

· Alert and obedient attitude
·Fast determined departure, both on land and into water
· Aggressive search for the fall
· Prompt pick-up
· Reasonably fast return

I am off to the Missouri Valley Field Trial. But, before I leave, I want to address the following comments which are liberally sprinkled throughout this thread. -

- Judging is subjective.
- Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
- Style is in the eye of the beholder

The above comments suggest/imply that a judge is free to do whatever he/she elects when it comes to evaluating style.

I dispute that suggestion.

The Rule Book, which Dennis cited (and I quoted above) specifically tells judges what they should be looking for when evaluating style. To put it another way, the Rule Book frames what we are to evaluate subjectively. Judges are not free to look - or ignore - performance to their heart's delight if they follow the Rule Book. I freely admit that there are judges who do not read the Rule Book before they judge, or follow it when they have read it, but that is another subject. The question is, what should judges do, according to the Rule Book, in evaluating style? The answer is that they are to look for - gaiety, eagerness, alertness, aggressive search, prompt pickup, reasonably fast return. When you ignore these elements and instead focus on the number of whistles a handler uses in evaluating style or some other explanation for a mechanical, deliberate, or slow dog, you are ignoring the Rule Book.

What puzzles me most about this thread is why so many people are defending/protecting dogs that "walk" on their blinds, are "deliberate" in their performance, or even "painful" to watch.

Eons ago, Bill Tarrant lambasted collar trainers for producing "robots." I still hear/read those complaints in posts. I remember the days of the Escalon shuffle. They are, by and large, gone - because we can train dogs to be compliant and still look good.

Why would anyone want to promote the bad old days? There is simply no reason to ignore (which is really the same as promoting) poor style. Our dogs are capable of doing amazing things and looking stylish while doing it. Those are the dogs that I want to win/place when I judge.

Ted
 
#80 ·
Im confused as to what rule book we are supposed to reference.. The FT rule book,, or the HT rule book.. The OP was discussing a master test!
 
#81 ·


What does the HT Rule Book say?
 
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