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Arguments for the E-Collar

8K views 42 replies 34 participants last post by  Sundown49 aka Otey B 
#1 ·
I find it difficult to argue FOR the E-Collar to people who know next to nothing about training a competitive dog. It seems that people can't see past the fact that it inflicts pain on an animal. What are some good arguments that can be made for it? We all need to be better ambassadors of the sport. The more intelligent we can speak on the subject, the better.
 
#3 ·
It seems that people can't see past the fact that it inflicts pain on an animal.
And there's the problem. It most certainly does not "inflict pain". At the lowest levels, the majority of people can't feel it...and at the highest, it's not much different than getting a zap of static electricity in the winter.
 
#8 ·
I think Tri-Tronics/Garmin, Dogtra, Sport Dog, etc. should be working harder to change public perception. They have marketing and advertising teams who are well compensated and it is their product after all.

It's frustrating when people who consider their dog a pet/companion animal exclusively want to influence how everyone trains their dog. I've gotten crap for not adopting a shelter dog and after spending 10 or 15 minutes trying to explain the societal benefits of responsible breeding and working dogs (ie: police dogs, SAR, detection, guide work), I'm usually to tired to discuss e-collars.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I explain how a dog must be rewarded or corrected at the exact moment of the behavior. Since I am training for actions that are not performed right at my side, I need a way to reach the dog at the proper moment. A clicker can work to mark a proper behavior, with promise of reward to come. E collars are best way to mark a wrong behavior that needs changing. I also place collar prongs on my lower arm and allow person to "shock" me. I always explain conditioning phase, as a necessary part of teaching the dog what the collar means.
(Going into indirect pressure etc is just too complicated, for many pet people)

I helped a friend who just wanted his pet dog to jog off leash with him through the paths in fields and woods at community park. Off leash the dog wandered off and jumped on other runners. On leash he dragged and pulled the owner, or tangled leash around owners legs. I gave him an article to read, and spent one afternoon with him and dog. By the next weekend he was thrilled with the dog's behavior and so glad he could both give his young Golden a proper outlet for his high energy level, plus spend enjoyable time with his dog. He had owned the collar for almost a full year, but had been afraid to use it. This is highly intelligent lawyer, now an e collar convert. If we each convert one person, they will go out and convert others.
 
#13 ·
I have actually hunted with a guy (a physician) who shot at his dog. Granted it was bird shot and he was about 40 yards away, but I got my dog the heck away from him, pronto! And I love the hearing aid comment.
My boy gets real excited when I grab the collar, he knows we are going out to have some fun!
 
#17 ·
This recent controversy isn’t really about ecollars. The ecollar is just an easy target for the “Purely Positive” cultists. That’s why they refer to it as a “shock collar” because to the uninformed, it sounds more disconcerting.

These are people who care more about feeling morally superior than they care about producing results. They use specious arguments citing “studies have shown…”, and they argue against straw man examples of cruel & stupid training techniques as if they were the norm.

If they ever get a ban on ecollars, they’ll just go to work against choke chains, heeling sticks and maybe even the concept of "training" entirely. Their totalitarian natures won’t allow them to allow others to make their own decisions. These are the kind of people who want to ban everything they disagree with & make everything they approve of mandatory.

In spite of their claims to having a superior training method, they can’t actually demonstrate it by producing competitive dogs. If the 2Q approach was more effective than a balanced program, they wouldn’t need a to ban anything. We’d all be clicking & treating our way to success.

Full disclosure- I use a clicker & treats to teach puppies & thinks it’s a great way to teach early obedience & to establish a good attitude toward training. That being said, it doesn’t teach the dog his “place” in the relationship.
 
#18 ·
I would say that the collar does hurt. The point is the dog thinks hey it hurts when I do that. I guess I shouldn't do that. It is called discipline. Why should dogs be held at a higher level than humans? If you don't do your job you get some form of discipline. Positive reinforcement is effective to a point, buy when a dog decides it doesn't want to do something positive reinforcement doesn't always work. Too bad we don't live in a world where all anyone or any dog needed was a little positive reinforcement.
 
#19 ·
I have 'educated' many on e-collars as I do a lot of drill work in a large park near home. Lots of people stop and watch, some ask questions. I keep info on e-collar simple and state that used properly they are very humane and a correction that the dog understands. But having a happy friendly dog by my side wearing an e-collar, for them to meet and greet, is worth a thousand words. If they want me to elaborate I will, and often stress how much more freedom an 'off-leash' reliable (ie, e-collar trained) dog is able to have and the safety factors involved. I have NEVER had anyone give me a hard time about using the collar (so far!).
A friend of a friend adopted a young Golden several months ago. This dog was untrained and wild and high maintenance, and try as she might (with her positive methods) the owner made little progress. She nevertheless let him off leash recently for a swim. He took off for the street and was hit by a truck, and killed. A little e-collar work would have probably given him a long happy life.
FWIW, I have corresponded w/ AKC and they say they will be reviewing procedures for media, interviews etc. Sounds like at least they 'realize' they sent the WRONG person on this one!
 
#20 ·
I find it difficult to argue FOR the E-Collar to people who know next to nothing about training a competitive dog. It seems that people can't see past the fact that it inflicts pain on an animal. What are some good arguments that can be made for it? We all need to be better ambassadors of the sport. The more intelligent we can speak on the subject, the better.
AFTER non-collar training (emphasize this), I just think of it as lightly slapping a kid's hand when he's drifting off and saying "pay attention!".
 
#21 ·
The shock collar as stated when it was first introduce has come a long way especially when the World Wide Web was introduced and information was at ones finger tips.
When folks still use the term “shock collar” they are still thinking in terms of a primitive device used by professionals only way back then.
I believe folks who see the shock collar (as they called them still) and those who are curious to ask questions about it and who are open minded to understand their purpose will see that they have their means in modern dog training.
When someone asks about it as a bystander, then the question becomes…What have you heard about them?
 
#22 · (Edited)
I find it difficult to argue FOR the E-Collar to people who know next to nothing about training a competitive dog. It seems that people can't see past the fact that it inflicts pain on an animal. What are some good arguments that can be made for it? We all need to be better ambassadors of the sport. The more intelligent we can speak on the subject, the better.
Just what kind of dogs do you think we have if we know next to nothing about training a competitive dog? To insinuate we know next to nothing is showing me that they may know next to nothing. Lots of good arguments can be made for the collar but it would be very difficult for me to explain to an AR person. We are all ambassadors of the sport believe it or not. Not just them b/c they don't use a collar??IMO Most of the time I don't use a collar but like the treats, my voice etc it is there when I need it. We are speaking intelligently on the subject. It is interesting to me that it is they who know little about the collar and its proper use. In fact their comments sound as if they would like to argue but not respect others. In fact their comments pis## me off on alot of topics! I shouldn't be directing this at you but PETA and AR groups aggravate people. IMHO
 
#25 ·
Yeah and that doesn't help bolster our position either, so probably not a very effective point in favor of e-collars...

There are those who will always be against us. I was running some water marks in a pond in my neighborhood. The longest was about 150 yards - or a bit less. I sent the dog, and about the time he got there someone began yelling at me that this was cruel to the dog. I walked back past the area to see what they thought was cruel but they had gone inside. But they yelled from the time he was about half way out to until he got back to me. Folks like this have made up their mind that dogs are just to be allowed to do whatever they feel like doing. They have no basis in reality that what would truly have been cruel would have been to leave him at home because after the first mark, we went on 2 more shorter marks, still up beat and ready for more. There is no convincing these people.

That being said, the vast majority of people have not made up their minds, and we do need to get our message out there. If we don't the argument gets shaped by the enemy.

Starting to think we have an obligation to speak our minds in response to idiots in all forums. The comments they make, in person or on social media can't be allowed to stand unopposed. In the spirit of not starting a fight we tend to keep our mouths shut, but that seems to only encourage them and make them think everyone agrees with them, and it also sways the folks in the middle when there is no reply from the other side - that they must be right.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I have to read all the responses because something may help me but being someone who sells e-collars and e-collar training, I have a few arguments I use.

To the "pain and inhumane" argument I generally point out that the unit operates exactly like a TENS unit that is used for muscle stimulation in physical therapy and chiropractor's offices daily on HUMANS. A lot of people have experienced this therapy and it helps calm their nerves and explain the micro-adjust-ability of the collar.

I readily admit that I am causing a small amount of annoyance, or discomfort that the dog would rather avoid. I feel being candid helps build trust in the fact that it's not PAIN. I also readily admit that if I want to make it "Painful" I most certainly can, but that's not how I train. I won't sell one to someone with that intention either. That's not the idea.

I explain that I train dogs because I love dogs, not because I make a million a year at it, so why would I want to actually hurt one?

As to benefits I have probably stressed timing in training to the person already but if not I explain the importance of good timing and the inadequacy of other tools once the dog leaves the end of the leash.

Most people I work with have had the dog check out on them, ignore whatever reward they are offering and go chase a squirrel. I explain how dogs choose activities based on reward value and the dog's own behavior usually proves me right. I remind them what could happen if the dog chased that squirrel across a busy road.

I stress that if you're just going to have a house pet in a fenced yard the collar is likely not necessary, and I will train primarily +R if the customer desires it.

I call the collar a safety net for off leash situations. If someone likes to hike or anything else where they want the dog off leash, the collar provides the ability to give a reminder at a distance with good timing.

Finally, I get a dog out and show them how the collar operates, at a level where you get better behavior but no more than an ear twitch from the dog.

If they aren't convinced by then they probably won't ever be IMHO.

Hope some of these points are helpful when you are faced with questions.

Most of you aren't getting honest, open minded questions, but rather objection from well meaning pet owners. In that case I don't try very hard except to explain that I do things with my dogs that they would never do, thus the collar is important to me where it may not be for them.
 
#27 ·
MaryLynn, I think you misunderstood the OP. I took him to be asking the forum, who he believes knows a lot about training competitive dogs, how forum members would explain use of e-collar to others of the general public. It is the general public who he describes as those who know next to nothing about training competitive dogs... I don't see how you felt he was saying you, or any forum member, doesn't train competitive dogs?
 
#29 ·
Yes, thank you. I was very confused reading her post. I was lost on where she was going.

Several have made good points for the argument, which is the point of my thread. Some have said it is a waste of time to try, and they may be right. But I would like to try to explain to a person who isn't biased but just uninformed on the merits of the E-Collar. Lot of good points made so far.
 
#31 ·
direct anyone with questions on e-collars to Bill Hillmann .... and how it is just reinforcing commands that are already known and the collar used where distance is involved.

If we were around in the early day of collars with no adjustments to the levels of shock, many dogs got fried. Technology has come a long way... but those who want to believe the low levels of nicks hurt the dog are never going to be open minded. I've got a hunting friend who saw a trainer frying a dog when these collars were first introduced and he will not ever use one of the new ones today...in his mind all he sees is that trainer misusing one of the first e-collars on the market.

 
#32 ·
I find it ironic that this topic has come up the same time as Adrian Peterson's story.
There are those that say any degree of corporal punishment is wrong - be it a child or an animal.
There are those that will defend both.
Each side has its extremists, while the majority are somewhere in the middle, trying to understand when the fine line is crossed.
 
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