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Encouraging "The Point"

15K views 93 replies 23 participants last post by  Socks 
#1 ·
Im probably going to get bashed by the non pointing lab folks, but here goes anyway....

My new pup has demonstrated on a few occasions the tendency "point" So maybe I have a pointing lab on my hands. I don't have any live birds to test her on yet, so today I did the "Wing on a fishing rod" thing and sure enough she pointed it. I realize its a "sight point" but maybe its got some potential.....Now my question is how can I encourage it?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Put a marker word to it and reward her for doing the behavior with food or allowing her to chase/catch it. You have a way to induce it (wing and pole).

If you understand marker words then you'll know that if you create the association between the marker and reward the dog will continue doing the same behavior (pointing) for longer and longer while it is waiting to be released.

If you've never worked with markers look up "Michael Ellis Classical Conditioning". Michael explains the concept in a free video as concisely as anyone I have ever seen.

My Hope flash points like that sometimes and my marker word is "GET READY"
 
#3 ·
Been down this road before. The dog either points or it doesn't. Keep in mind this is about genetics.....not a "marker" contrived behavior.

I can get about any Lab pup to eventually "point" a bird on a string....just get them too tired to try catching and "voila" they will point....probably more like "standing".

Mike, just get the pup on some wild birds, good flying pen raised quail/chukars or feral pigeons and leave it to the genetics. The more you "interfere".....the more conflicted it will become.
 
#7 ·
No kiddin Sharon , I hate it when clients say they have done this over and over!!! Hey might be looking for an apprentice pointing dog trainer if you know anyone...
 
#8 ·
Both of my previous labs, once they had learned the upland hunting game and put the bird and the gun together, learned to stand game and not flush until I caught up. My present lab sight points. So if we see a bird ahead on the trail (I hunt a lot of ruffed grouse) she freezes in a classic looking point. She often sees the birds before I do. She also "points" birds if she first winds them when they are already very close to her, basically under her nose. In each of these cases I have to tell her to get 'em up before she will flush. I like these traits and learned behaviors. I don't test or trial my dog...we just hunt.

Canuck
 
#10 ·
Sorry, but I disagree. :) Wing on a string is a cute thing to do to see a little puppy point a time or two. After that, put it away and get to *real* birds, birds and more birds. It's not a drill, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be.
Dogs that learn to sight point are problematic because they tend to want to always see the bird before really locking up tight. They slow down, creep in.....and that bumps way too many birds, which in turn means missed shot opportunities.
Wing on a string is great fun to play with, just to see a puppy point. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do it. :)
 
#11 ·
BS...BS...BS. I can't believe I am reading this... My old man is turning in his grave as I type. I am now on deaf ears.
Those folks out there who want training in the pointing world please go to a site that has experience.
I will not AND I repeat not add any more to this thread. Damn :-x
 
#13 ·
BJ would you mind telling us YOUR credentials? Sharon works with some of the top pointing dog people in the world,( have you ever heard of the Smith family?) and is a published author . I fully agree with Sharon and firmly don't encourage our puppy buyers to play with wings and strings. Expose to birds, teach whoa , expose to gun , then put it all together...
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the input folks. I'm really not looking to "train" her to point. I just want to encourage any natural tendency to point that may be there. If she winds up being flusher that's fine. But if she does point NATURALLY that's a bonus. She has shown now on several times a pointing tendency. As well the Sire has thrown pointing pups before so she may have it...keeping my fingers crossed.
 
#16 ·
I am sorry BJ , I have done a couple of searches and without know what breed you are talking about can't find anything
 
#21 · (Edited)
Got any in the Hall of Fame? ;)

edited to add: It also lends credibility when you get the breed of dog you're talking about right. They're Brittanies. The spaniel part was dropped a few decades ago. ;)

Now, I don't care if you want to play wing on a string until the cows come home. If that's your thing, knock yourself out....have fun...enjoy yourself. But acting like your opinion is the only right one on the planet and that those of us who disagree are clueless just isn't gonna fly, my friend. :D
 
#23 ·
Got any in the Hall of Fame? ;)
I don't know? I believe there was no such thing back then, but I could be wrong. Go check it out. Please understand I only shown two dual champions and there were several more. I believe I don't have to show any more on the Gatley's passion in which I was involved in...Well until I had to join the military. ;-) IMO this thread does not served any more purpose.
 
#24 ·
A great training book is "Training the Pointing Retriever" by Julie Knutson. Also the American Pointing Labrador Assoc. (APLA) has a great website/forum is a great resource too. Enjoy your pup, enjoy the ride! Pointing labs are a lot of fun to hunt with.
 
#27 ·
Shoot only over good points, which means the dog does NOT flush the bird. The gun or a wild flush is good, any dog movement that results in a flush. is bad
 
#33 ·
In a perfect world, my dog will hold a point tell I get there, then I tell him "Get um up!" Bird goes up, dogs butt goes down, and my shotgun barrel would not be bent! Lol but it does happen like that every so often and those are the days I relish!
 
#34 · (Edited)
Please remember you are the one who kicks the bird up, not the dog. :) Dog should be doing a stanch hold so to speak not sit. :)

The reason I say that is in case the hunter misses bird and bird continues flying.

I want to add and I am done...If you miss and bird fly's away...the look you get from your dog goes deep within you soul. Those who know understand quite well what I am saying......
 
#35 · (Edited)
Mike (the OP) will figure this out. The most important factor in this issue is a failure to recognize that retrieving skills and pointing in the uplands are contrary behaviors.

Most bird dog and retriever trainers do not understand the conflict. Trainers of the versatile breeds have figured it out. However, Labs are not bred to be versatile. Therefore, a person that decides to "go with" a pointing Lab is not only conflicted with the needs of his dog but with how to go about preparing to do both. In addition, there is always the question of genetics.....natural point (or not).

Mike is in the beginning stages of his conflict. It begins with does my pup have the genetic makeup of actually being a natural pointer? If he does, then training for the two disciplines requires special adjustments and a great deal more time. Most retriever trainers want a sequential program. The pointing Lab is better dealt with by compartmentalizing the contrary skill sets. It is not easy and takes more time.

Labs are smart dogs. There are really talented trainers that can almost teach a Lab to point. Many that are taught look like it. However, if the genetics are there training is different and can be very rewarding.

A famous bird dog trainer Bill West took two field trial bred Labs and spent many, many months trying to develop what appeared to be pointing Labs. When he concluded this work, he had several, interesting comments. First of all, it was the most difficult training that he had every done. Secondly, it took way longer than he expected and lastly, IT WAS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT.

note: While training he did zero retriever work.

Mind you these were well bred field trial Labs with a great deal of prey drive that exhibited no natural tendency to point.

I couldn't help myself and "Googled" this topic "Bird Dog...Wing on a String".


Wing on a String (link)
 
#36 · (Edited)
Mike (the OP) will figure this out. The most important factor in this issue is a failure to recognize that retrieving skills and pointing in the uplands are contrary behaviors.

Most bird dog and retriever trainers do not understand the conflict. Trainers of the versatile breeds have figured it out. However, Labs are not bred to be versatile. Therefore, a person that decides to "go with" a pointing Lab is not only conflicted with the needs of his dog but with how to go about preparing to do both. In addition, there is always the question of genetics.....natural point (or not).

Mike is in the beginning stages of his conflict. It begins with does my pup have the genetic makeup of actually being a natural pointer? If he does, then training for the two disciplines requires special adjustments and a great deal more time. Most retriever trainers want a sequential program. The pointing Lab is better dealt with by compartmentalizing the contrary skill sets. It is not easy and takes more time.

Labs are smart dogs. There are really talented trainers that can almost teach a Lab to point. Many that are taught look like it. However, if the genetics are there training is different and can be very rewarding.

A famous bird dog trainer Bill West took two field trial bred Labs and spent many, many months trying to develop what appeared to be pointing Labs. When he concluded this work, he had several, interesting comments. First of all, it was the most difficult training that he had every done. Secondly, it took way longer than he expected and lastly, IT WAS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT.

note: While training he did zero retriever work.

Mind you these were well bred field trial Labs with a great deal of prey drive that exhibited no natural tendency to point.

I couldn't help myself and "Googled" this topic "Bird Dog...Wing on a String".


Wing on a String (link)
You people need to understand the methods use in training pointers....Nice try....I can't beleive this site is so bias to those who don't have a understanding and then will go to extreme measures to show or pound theirs chests to dis-flower to those who know the game. I am in utter perplex and maybe I need to go to another site that has people that know what they are talking about. As I said before.....I call a spade a spade. Geez......

Chris...I am out of here. Your audience is out of control and to their own interests....Very sad....:) Please delete my username....thanks.
 
#37 ·
Bj said
"I can't beleive this site is so bias to those who don't have a understanding and then will go to extreme measures to show or pound theirs chests to dis-flower to those who know the game. I am in utter perplex"
I read that post and decided to let it simmer...."aired" my older dogs and contemplated some more. Then it came to me....discretion is a "cool" word.
 
#38 ·
BJ I am pretty certain you have no clue to whom you speak..... LOL shaking my head
 
#39 · (Edited)
BJ, sad that you choose to leave just because everybody isn't agreeing with you. I'm not sure why yours are the only credentials that are permitted to have any value or merit?

I can get together with any one of my pointing dog compadres and we can debate the merits of different training methods and nobody's feeling get hurt.

Just so you know I didn't exactly fall off the turnip truck yesterday:
The guys I run with have trained and handled 7 NFCs (and most were DCs as well)and are both in the Field Trial Hall of Fame. When they talk, I pay attention. You're a Brittany guy...the names Delmar Smith and Rick Smith have to ring a few bells. Rick trained the only Brittany in history to win a three hour endurance championship running against pointers and setters. I train a lot of pointing dogs of all breeds and just this year, two of them earned their VC with NAVHDA. I've trained others in past years that are also VCs. Also have been writing a regular training column for Pointing Dog Journal for going on about 14 years now, and have traveled all over this country and abroad doing seminars.

Please note: I'm not listing this stuff to play the "mine's bigger than yours" game. I'm bringing it up because it's important to address your idea that you're the only one here who knows how to train pointing dogs and the rest of us are all ignorant.

Peace.

p.s. Here's my Brittany, Cody:

. Dog Canidae Dog breed Sporting Group Brittany
Dog Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed German longhaired pointer
 
#41 ·
My dogs will point in the parking lot at Walmart. It's called Whoa. I can train a Pitbull to point, but finding birds might be a problem and bringing them back in one peace will be a real good day. Wing on a string is a good way to start, to see if the dog has any natural instinct to point. most Labs do not do well with this, because their instinct to retrieve is to high. Right to the whoa board would be my first chose.

Keith
 
#43 · (Edited)
How do you explain then the GSP that was the Greatest Ruffed Grouse & Woodcock dog I have ever seen or owned would Not point a wing on a string to save my life ? I have seen a few other great bird dogs that did not point a wing as pup but just chase and chase it. What would be the point in going on with such nonsense ?

I say again - pointing a wing proves very little in the end of rather a dog can point a Grouse by scent. Might be a cute thing to see.

So one of my present labs I am working points my Cats with his paw up does this mean he will point Grouse ?

Just saying

jim
 
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