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FF = the "universal solvent"?

6K views 40 replies 21 participants last post by  Pete 
#1 ·
So many times whenever anyone has problems for which they're seeking advice on this forum, the answer is "go back and do a thorough FF." If you had to list the symptoms of inadequate force-fetching, what would you include?
 
#9 ·
I've been asked dozens of times "How do I know when I'm done with FF?" My replay is that you're not really done with it. You'll need to maintain that skill set. But generally, I'm suspect of the thoroughness of a dog's FF work if I need to tell him to fetch. I believe that a dog that has been thoroughly FF'd is drawn to fetch objects like iron to a magnet. You certainly shouldn't have to say it twice.

Evan
 
#4 ·
FF is not just about opening it's mouth and picking up a bumper. That is only one exercise in the process.

What FF does is to teach the dog how to turn pressure off. When working on "fetch" you are working under very controlled conditions where the dog learns with pressure that if I open my mouth and accept the bumper, the pressure goes away. Then you move through the various steps of picking the bumper up off the table, the ground, while walking, etc.

These additional steps all help the dog to understand that it if it does not do the task asked, "pressure" will be applied and to turn the pressure off, it just needs to comply.
 
#6 ·
FF is not just about opening it's mouth and picking up a bumper. That is only one exercise in the process.

What FF does is to teach the dog how to turn pressure off. When working on "fetch" you are working under very controlled conditions where the dog learns with pressure that if I open my mouth and accept the bumper, the pressure goes away. Then you move through the various steps of picking the bumper up off the table, the ground, while walking, etc.

These additional steps all help the dog to understand that it if it does not do the task asked, "pressure" will be applied and to turn the pressure off, it just needs to comply.
This is what so many don't get. Usually the ones that don't understand, or don't want to commit to the complete process.
It is foundation work that is used and benefitted from the start to the end. It is easier to build something correctly from the start, as opposed to plugging holes as you go.
 
#5 ·
Personally I force fetch all of my dogs,but I also believe not all dogs need to be forced.Decision of the owner. There are many ways to train a dog,so for that reason I can't stand when someone asks for help and the standard answer is "you didn't properly force-go back and do it right" Are we mindless robots? I believe we would all benefit from training a dog without using force fetch, it would force us as trainers to be more creative as trainers thus better trainers.As long as we're at it trash the collars as well.I truly believe if we successfully trained a retriever without force or a collar we would become better more knowledgeable trainers and give us a better appreciation of the art. Yes I have done it more than once and it has made me more of a thinker and much less likely to just push that button on the transmitter. Too many times I have laid in bed at night and thought "Damn I shouldn't have burned that dog for that" I personally don't like that feeling, I am the smarter more superior being here. Think before you react and happy training. Guy
 
#10 ·
Repeated disobedience to attempt to retrieve upon command when the dog understands the task at hand.

FF is obedience. The command and immediate response to seek to retrieve when the dog understands what is expected. It is a great help to those that wish to play today's advanced dog games but dogs have been retrieveing long before it was ever invented.
A properly FFed dog may give an occassional "no-go""slow-go", "blink", "pop", "check", etc. This usually stems from confusion, a lack of confidence, or some other cause, not inadequate force training. After the real cause is determined and addressed forcing on this concept may infact help boost a dog's confidence to work this in the future.

Tim
 
#11 ·
My question is directed toward 1 Tulip.
Have you ever Force Fetched a dog or owned a dog that was properly Force fetched?
Seems like your spending allot of time stirring the pot on this subject. Just wondering why the interest?
Thanks
Don
 
#12 ·
Not really trying to stir the pot. I don't hunt, I only run HT's and I want to play at the top of the game as much as possible. I believe FF is so foundational that I do NOT FF my dogs. It is so basic and important I pay a pro to do it as part of a solid basics program. Then I reinforce the fetch command if ever I think I'm seeing the dog testing me in some way... poor hold, or mouthing the bumper or whatever. That is rare in my experience because the dogs come back to me so well prepared for their job.

Therefore, in all honesty... in reading these threads, I see people being told to properly "re-FF" their dogs for X, Y, and Z reasons. And since I never see these more remote manifestations of poor FF, I was curious about how it bubbles up later.

Hope that makes sense.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I agree with tulip on this. There are a few aspects of retriever training that are so important and so basic to moving on with a dog that if I did not have the time nor the experience -guidance to do them correctly myself. Even I would definitely pay a knowledgeable pro to do it. Those are proper (FF&CC) and (water forcing-swim by) both are very labor intensive and need to be done correctly. These are where most later training problems stem from, problems on land (FF&CC) problem on water (Water-Force/Swim by). Everyone always wants to go on to the fun stuff of marks, and running cold blind; they'll oftentimes not thoroughly proof the basic skill sets. Proofing perhaps becomes even more tedious when you've got a talented dog that picks things up quickly and wants to do the job, but it still needs to be done. If your not thorough one day the wheels will fall off, and you'll be surprised how far you need to go back to "fix" things. I admit that even I can get bored with intensity and proofing involved in both these tasks, if I wasn't so cheap; I'd happily hand them off to a pro ;)
 
#17 · (Edited)
Tulip, I look at things differently than most but I agree with Tim C. in that FF is really nothing more than teaching the dog to be obedient about fetching and ultimately going when sent. Where I think some of the opinions about the "larger effects" come into play is more or less rooted in what one might call "traditional" types of "programs" where FF is the first place the dog is introduced to the concept of "turning off pressure". In those programs, they may have learned to avoid a pop on a choke chain but they probably don't understand the concept of continuous pressure being released when a command is performed until somewhere in the "force fetch" process.

I train dogs of all shapes and sizes and most often get called for large dogs that have had some basic obedience training (rewards only) but are out of control at the adolescent stage, around 6-12 months. The vast minority of these are retrievers and other than my own dogs I don't think I have ever "force fetched" a one of them bu I frequently employ things like prong and e-collars to help owners bring these dogs under control. What I consistently hear back from people is that after a short time in training their dog becomes a new dog, meaning the unruly youngster, while they may still have their moments, is much more quick to listen up and do what they are asked.

I've often pondered why that is, in the vein of trying to improve my protocols, and I think it has a few components:
1. More consistent reinforcement
2. More frequent reinforcement
3. More kinds of reinforcement (rewards + turn off pressure)
4. Higher expectations leading to higher standards from owners that ultimately lead to less practice of bad behavior

I think in long term (advanced) retriever training we often believe we are looking at dis-obedience, when in fact we may be looking at a lack of confidence or the dog being confused (as Tim mentioned). There are cases, most certainly where a dog has not decided to follow it's handler because of weak reinforcement in previous training steps or a discontinuation of reinforcement as the dog became reliable. In a lot of cases people stop reinforcing good behavior as dogs become reliable and then later these behaviors can weaken. I see that all of the time in the pet dog practice too. In fact, it is the real reason I get called for all these adolescents. People get tired of smelling like liver treats all of the time.

I can remember a great case in point for this and I wish I could remember the dogs name but he was a bull of a BLM I encountered in my work as a retriever trainer. I had come to a new team and when I did the team members instructed me that we always ran this dog last, especially on blinds. Seemed he had a habit of bringing back one bumper on the first blind, two on the second and three on the third, which if you've ever worked 20 dogs in a row can be very annoying. Everyone thought he was kind of cute that he seemed to be able to count but in watching him.. he was dog aggressive, would pee on every bush when returning from a blind, aired whenever he felt like and generally carried himself with an air of "oh yea, what you gonna do about it". He pretty much did 80% of his stuff on his own terms, at least in his mind. No discredit to the team for managing this behavior instead of addressing it. Dogs were at a premium right then and going into intensive therapy for this ran the risk of the dog getting screwed up for a while, which we couldn't afford. I was able at the time to get the team leader to consent to letting me work with this guy between training exercises so I took him into obedience and basic pile work, where I upped his standard and made sure he didn't ever shop the pile but rather returned straight to me with the first bumper he came across. You could say I went back to "force fetch" or "force to pile" with him but I really didn't, I just used those exercises to show him that if he screwed around there were bad consequences and if he did it my way, it was a lot of fun to work with me. It was never that he didn't like to retrieve, just that he didn't like to be controlled with inconsistent handlers (there were a lot of people handling him at this time so total consistently was impossible).

It turned out in just a few sessions that this guy stopped shopping piles and peeing on the return, became more obedience in general and even started taking his casts better on blinds. He transformed pretty quickly once he had a clear set of expectations in his mind and consistent enough reinforcement to habituate those good behaviors. He was a great lesson for me in the "larger effects" of force fetch which, as I mentioned, I believe have nothing to do with "force fetch" but rather to do with consistent reinforcement of the behaviors we want and punishment of those we don't.

That was a dog someone would say "put him back through FF and the yard", and truly, that wouldn't have hurt this guy but it wasn't really necessary once we got an understanding.

So long way around but I think i advanced retriever training literally any behavior can and will get weakened by lack of reinforcement, requiring the trainer to go back to some point in the training process and rebuild/reinforce that behavior more consistently. Where exactly they "back up to" would depend on the behavior that is suffering but I think a lot of things get generalized back to "weak FF" when in fact they are just behaviors that haven't gotten enough reinforcement lately to keep them reliable.

So, given FF is really focused on four or five behaviors (go, pick up, hold, here, release) I think those are the ones that necessitate going all the way back to the beginning of the process however, as with the example above, any of the steps might be used to resolve a particular behavioral issue later in life.
 
#19 ·
Darrin's perspective is very interesting.

Years ago (when I knew less than nothing) I got a pup line bred on River Oaks Corky by way of Rascal. He was a phenom and I didn't really understand what I had. I thought I'd FF'd him because I couldn't get him to not pick up the bumper under any circumstance or under any condition. (Oh, maybe once or twice I popped him under the chin to "hold", but it was very frustrating. How do you force the dog when he's jumping on the bumper a millisecond after you say "fetch".) He was just a natural. At about a year or so, he went to a pro who quickly got him QAA and some Open points. When I later told the pro I'd not actually ever FF'd the dog, he almost freaked out. Told me if he'd known that, he'd have started with the table. (Oops. Too late. He was already running in the Open. Oh, and I'd already run him through the Ob. ring and put a CD on him.)

I think that was the case of a dog that just wanted to please so badly, he'd do anything for you. His basic obedience was just a choke chain and me doing healing patterns in my drive way when the babies were down for naps. And when we were snowed in (we lived in Western NY) practicing "here" and "heal" in the kitchen.

Maybe Bosun is/was the exception that proves Darrin's hypothesis. But for now... I follow the FF/CC orthodoxy.
 
#20 ·
I personally FF the 16 dogs a year that come through my kennel. I will tell you that I know of 4 master level dogs that haven't been FF that are a pleasure to hunt with and will flat out work for you. To say that FF is the key to everything is incorrect. I believe it is a concept and a tool that really helps on my end in getting the dog there quicker. If one sticks with it he can train his dog without it! So, in saying to turn the pressure up every time a dog has an issue shows ones inexperience as a trainer.
 
#21 ·
Dustin D I don't think that is a correct statement in the absolute sense you said it. I think it could be a symptom of a non ff dog but in my experience I have seen dogs with a flawless hold start messing with the bumper at heel once the pressure got turned up on the fetch command.
 
#22 ·
I have seen dogs with a flawless hold
start messing with the bumper at heel
Black Yellow Green Violet Purple


The question is what could be a symptom of an inadequately FF'd dog.

A dog retrurning to heel with bumper, but constantly re-adjusting the bumper
and rolling it around in his mouth, chewing etc ;....
(I'd consider) to be an inadequately Forced Fetched Dog.

Should a dog not return to heel with retrieve, sit still and wait for the retrieve to be taken?

That's what my current 3 year old does now b/c during FF on him 2½ years ago
any movement or tongue roll or chewing was corrected during FF.

Am I wrong here?
 
#23 ·
Wouldn't the hold portion correct that to begin with or does the next step open you up for Rolling the bumper?
Or perhaps the dog is good on the table but starts rolling bumpers off? Is that lack of adequate hold training or
just another anomaly ?
 
#25 ·
That's sort of my point.

Question: "What is a sign of inadequate Force Fetch"?
Answer: Toying around with the bumper at heel.

I thought that a pretty simply Question and Answer Blue Yellow Purple Violet Photograph


Were talking about dogs that have been through FF.
What are signs that it was done poorly or needs more practice.


:confused:
 
#24 ·
I believe the dog is concerned about the next send to the pile or whatever, he is being forced to go, gets nervous and messes with the bumper, I do not believe in that sense the rolling of the bumper is a symptom of poor forcing at all but a result of being forced and being nervous about being forced again. I'm talking about during FF or FTP. But I also wouldn't consider an occasional roll just while retrieving a problem either.
 
#26 ·
The question is what could be a symptom of an inadequately FF'd dog.

A dog retrurning to heel with bumper, but constantly re-adjusting the bumper
and rolling it around in his mouth, chewing etc ;....
(I'd consider) to be an inadequately Forced Fetched Dog.

Should a dog not return to heel with retrieve, sit still and wait for the retrieve to be taken?

That's what my current 3 year old does now b/c during FF on him 2½ years ago
any movement or tongue roll or chewing was corrected during FF.

Am I wrong here?
I would equate what you said with
The reason my dog isn't a FC is because of incomplete training.

You leave out of the equation genetic querks and temperament . You should have said with a majority of dogs. Then you would be correct. Not ALL well bred retrievers even make the gun dog grade let alone perfect mouth habits.


Pete

Pete
 
#28 ·
I would equate what you said with
The reason my dog isn't a FC is because of incomplete training.

You leave out of the equation genetic querks and temperament . You should have said with a majority of dogs. Then you would be correct. Not ALL well bred retrievers even make the gun dog grade let alone perfect mouth habits.

Pete

It seems like you are saying that a dog may have bad mouth problems b/c of his genes
and that those problems aren't fixable via Force Fetch.

Is that what you are saying?
 
#37 · (Edited)
I would equate mouth problem rolling, chomping, adjusting, to inadequate FF, but not in the since of FF as being the fetch command, more of the stance that FF is a tool used to establish a correct relationship btw a dog, the items they are carrying and the trainer. A dog rolling mouthing etc. shows me a lack of respect for the item he's carrying and a lack of respect for me as a trainer. I'd start to question whether I had properly taught respect for items or properly enforced that relationship. Then I'd wonder if I have enabled and allowed him to develop a tradition of being disrespectful; rolling, chomping, or freezing on birds, without addressing it, early before it became a habit- problem. A very basic notion of FF is as a method use to teach standards; a standard fetch, a standard for a proper mouth, a healthy pressure relationship, a respect for those standards (which have to be maintained) and a respect for me (also needs to be maintained). Teach a standard, enforce a standard, maintain a standard and never let it develop into a problem. Training vs. genetics, in some cases, perhaps but indoctrinate them young and you've got more of a chance of genetic predisposition not developing into a problem.
 
#39 ·
It seems like you are saying that a dog may have bad mouth problems b/c of his genes
and that those problems aren't fixable via Force Fetch.

Is that what you are saying?
Yes
You can make various levels of improvement but in the end it would be substandard to what is acceptable as the norm. And the dog may excel in other area's Genetics are not just about marking and attitude ,,but the entire make up of the dog. You can usually make these odd things better but sometime the results may not be good enough for our standards.

Pete.
 
#41 ·
[QUOTEI would equate mouth problem rolling, chomping, adjusting, to inadequate FF, but not in the since of FF as being the fetch command, more of the stance that FF is a tool used to establish a correct relationship btw a dog, the items they are carrying and the trainer. A dog rolling mouthing etc. shows me a lack of respect for the item he's carrying and a lack of respect for me as a trainer. I'd start to question whether I had properly taught respect for items or properly enforced that relationship. Then I'd wonder if I have enabled and allowed him to develop a tradition of being disrespectful; rolling, chomping, or freezing on birds, without addressing it, early before it became a habit- problem. A very basic notion of FF is as a method use to teach standards; a standard fetch, a standard for a proper mouth, a healthy pressure relationship, a respect for those standards (which have to be maintained) and a respect for me (also needs to be maintained). Teach a standard, enforce a standard, maintain a standard and never let it develop into a problem. Training vs. genetics, in some cases, perhaps but indoctrinate them young and you've got more of a chance of genetic predisposition not developing into a problem.][/QUOTE]

That could be a valid assessment. So then,,,, do you think you can make all dogs show respect to you and your preferred objects. If so ,,,how would you go about doing that with a dog who embellishes pain and conflict,
 
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