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Judges Point Of View

6K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  Jeff Brezee 
#1 ·
For all AKC Judges (FT specifically).

I've heard a most Judges say that noise on line or after the send is a really bad thing and some will penalize a dog for it. I know exactly what the rule book says but lets be honest...do FT's resemble an average days hunt? Think not! I would bet yelling "back, over, heel or here and not to mention these modern day whistles" during a hunt scare off more birds then a dog who occasionally makes a whimper, Again I know what the rule book says and as a Judge I have thrown out a dog for excessive noise sitting on honor....poor running dog.

I've never heard a judge mention anything about intimidation which in my opinion is far worse than a bit of noise...what is intimidation? Smacking your leg while saying heel or here, saying no while the dog is on the mat, sending the dog for a long mark with a verbal that could be heard from space, etc.

So my question to the judges is why make an issue about noise when 90% of handlers use some form of intimidation.

Advise from senior Judges on these two matters would be appreciated.
 
#2 ·
I would say your definition of intimidation is way different than mine (subjective)...and a noisy dog is just that, noisy (black and white)...
 
#3 ·
So my question to the judges is why make an issue about noise when 90% of handlers use some form of intimidation.

Advise from senior Judges on these two matters would be appreciated.
Could it be that whining and/or barking is a fault and intimidation is not mentioned anywhere in the FT rules?
 
#4 ·
I suggest you look at the Rule Book

First, the term "intimidation" is absent from the Rule Book. The Rule Book does refer to "threatening gestures."

25. No handler shall (1) carry exposed any training equipment (except whistle) or use any other equipment or threatening gestures in such a manner that they may be an aid or threat in steadying or controlling a dog; (2) hold or touch a dog to keep him steady; or (3) noisily or frequently restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake.


Second, as for noise, the Rule Book does list

a) Loud and prolonged barking as a "serious fault."
b) Moderate whining of short duration as a "moderate fault"
c) Slight short whining or one bark, on being sent to retrieve as a "minor fault"

Third, I have
- Dropped dogs for noise issues
- Lowered placements for noise issues
- Told handlers that if they scrapped their foot in a loud fashion, tapped their leg, etc. as the birds were going off again, they would be dropped


 
#5 · (Edited)
Ditto what Ted said, I know of one very nice Yellow Lab bitch who was vocal to the point of being dropped a lot. She had three trials won that I know of and was dropped out of contention. The rule book is very clear on this, does a good job of spelling it out. My training buddy ended up retiring a talented dog because he could never fix the noise issue. As for intimidation, I don't know what you mean. Obviously field trials are a long way away from "an ordinary days shoot", but whistles and normal handling are a part of our sport and also a part of hunting. When hunting I accept the noise and motion that goes into handling a dog on a blind, where I would have a problem with a dog that was excessively vocal in the blind.
 
#6 ·
I have owned noisy dogs (sometimes believe it is genetic) I have been dropped, even in the last series on a honor with a very respectable trial going. Likewise have dropped dogs as a judge, derby through all-age, for noise. I think the rule book is very plain on the subject. I have judged and seen just about everything on intimidation up to including striking a dog with a whiffle bat behind the judges as dog left the line. The problem I see, there is too much inconsistent calls, where one pair of judges overlooks behavior , tacitly condoning it, and others "nitpick" , to the extreme. There are dogs in recent years who even finished Nationals who were very noisy. Scraping the ground with a foot to get a dog to look? as long as hands to the side, before signaling they are ready? once the test is in motion I believe all movement by handler should cease. I guess as judges 2 plus 2 are 4 , but, so are 3 plus 1, , but, you will always have technocrats seated in a judges chair who either come with their own agenda, rulebook or not.
 
#8 ·
Thanks Ted but my question regarding intimidation has nothing to do with the rule book nor did I mention in my intimidation paragraph any quote from the rule book. And I did state that I am aware of what the rules are for noise....but thanks any way.

Are threatening gestures not intimidation?

Webster's defines intimidate as....To make timid or fearful; to inspire of affect with fear; to deter, as by threats; to dishearten; to abash.[imp. & p. p. Intimidated ; p. pr. & vb. n. Intimidating .]
Now guilt, once harbored in the conscious breast,
Intimidates the brave, degrades the great



From original post....Smacking your leg while saying heel or here, saying no while the dog is on the mat, sending the dog for a long mark with a verbal that could be heard from space, etc...are these all expectable "gestures" while running a dog at a FT.
 
#10 ·
Are you trying to point out a discrepancy in the way field trial judges interpret threatening gestures versus voice, coming down harder on voice than threatening gestures? Or are you trying to expand what most of us consider normal, non-threatening handling into the threatening gesture category? By the definition you posted I hardly think lining a dog up or sending on a "way out" bird with a loud send is threatening.

I remember back in my hunt test days, the gallery would speculate on such and such a handler having taught his dog in training to fear the sound of change being rattled in the pocket or the lighting of a cigarette in the holding blind as a method to "intimidate". I noticed that said dog never did very well anyway, so even if it was a subterfuge, it didn't seem to work, so no point in being paranoid about it.
 
#9 · (Edited)
There is NOTHING you described as intmidation that is intimidating. Tapping a leg to say "Here," before the guns go off so the dog will better see a bird is intimidation? I call that being a good handler and trying to work as a team. "No," on the mat is intimidation? So it's better to let a dog look in the wrong direction or set himself in a way that handicaps him? Giving a dog a loud send to communicate that the bird is well beyond the other marks is intimidation??? You are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing things handlers do to actually assist their dogs in being successful to being on par with letting dog behavior go that is disruptive to both game and the working dog when a vocal dog is at honor. I've hunted with vocal dogs and they had to be put back in the truck just so the birds wouldn't flare. Hunt with a vocal dog and see how long it takes before all you want is to be back home. With handling, I, as the handler, determine the best times to retrieve birds, blow whistles, etc. In hunting, it is my job and responsibility to use whatever tools I have developed with my dog to retrieve downed birds. In hunting, a dog that won't take cues to find downed birds is going to be sub-standard at his job. A dog that won't shut up is doing that for himself.
 
#11 ·
I imagine you are aware that folks teach their dogs to shut down on short retired with a really quiet send with no hand, and to go long by putting the hand in and sending hard, right?

I don't think that's intimidation.

Tapping a leg, is that intimidation or communication? What about a tap on the leg scares a dog? Sounds like BS to me...
 
#12 ·
Doesn't look to me that you are looking for advice- pretty much already have your mind made up.

Trying to help out in the worst way regards

Bubba
 
#13 · (Edited)
My point is this. We have excepted those gestures as part of the game that's why some will disagree that they could be considered as intimidation or as Ted pointed out threatening. If you agree that there is some type of intimidation with those gestures\commands and except that its part of the game....why should a bit of noise be reason to drop a dog. Honestly besides the rule book saying its not good, what does it matter if the noise isn't terrible!

As a judge I have never made a note on a sheet about minor or moderate noise and I have seen plenty of handlers do some fairly intimidating stuff on the mat. I know how hard this game is and I know how much work is involved so as a Judge 95% of my "judging" is based on what happens in the field and at the end of the day if I have 2 dogs winning it but 1 dog yelped on a send and whined a bit on honor and the other dogs handler was smacking his knee saying no on multiple marks the noisy dog gets the Blue. By the way all of the other dogs couldn't mark a 747!
 
#15 ·
Like you, I don't make a note about a yelp on send or quiet whining, but I do note noise when to me it is bad. Regarding all the lining, "no", "here" tapping, snapping of fingers, I don't consider that in any way or form a threating gesture, and I would never note it in my book. The closest fault I could see would be "excessive lining" which would be that handler who takes forever pointing out the guns before calling for a bird. In that case I would quietly tell the handler I'm calling for the birds ready or not in five seconds or something, especially if there is a dog and handler sweating on the honor.
 
#16 ·
More on the diversity thing - a few years ago at a master test and I was a judge. The other person was just adamant we drop a dog on noise. I said no- it escalated to a senior judge thing and I asked it be pointed out in the book, after about 1.5 hours of no callbacks a bathroom break was in order. After angrey conversations we continued with the dog back
The point is whatever noise it was - was a big deal to the co - judge and not to me.
It's the diversity of what you may accept and how I may view it that I like. No one person has all the answers unless it's my wife -

If you stay in the sport long enough likely you'll get to see lots of diverse opinions. Enjoy your dog
Dk
 
#23 ·
More on the diversity thing - a few years ago at a master test and I was a judge. The other person was just adamant we drop a dog on noise. I said no- it escalated to a senior judge thing and I asked it be pointed out in the book, after about 1.5 hours of no callbacks a bathroom break was in order. After angrey conversations we continued with the dog back The point is whatever noise it was - was a big deal to the co - judge and not to me. It's the diversity of what you may accept and how I may view it that I like. No one person has all the answers unless it's my wife - If you stay in the sport long enough likely you'll get to see lots of diverse opinions. Enjoy your dog Dk
That's funny! Was the co-judge also your wife!?
 
#17 ·
I've heard a most Judges say that noise on line or after the send is a really bad thing and some will penalize a dog for it.
Penalties are assessed because the Rule Book requires that they be

I know exactly what the rule book says but lets be honest...do FT's resemble an average days hunt? Think not!
If you want realism, there is hunting and there are hunt tests of various sorts. FT offer extreme competition

I would bet yelling "back, over, heel or here and not to mention these modern day whistles" during a hunt scare off more birds then a dog who occasionally makes a whimper, Again I know what the rule book says and as a Judge I have thrown out a dog for excessive noise sitting on honor....poor running dog.
See above. If you want realism, there is hunting and there are hunt tests of various sorts. FT offer extreme competition

I've never heard a judge mention anything about intimidation which in my opinion is far worse than a bit of noise...what is intimidation? Smacking your leg while saying heel or here, saying no while the dog is on the mat, sending the dog for a long mark with a verbal that could be heard from space, etc.
As I have stated before, intimidation is not in the Rule Book. Threatening gestures are. The behaviors listed are not "threatening gestures" nor do I find them to be intimidating.

As far as tapping on the leg to get the dogs attention, or saying "heel" or "here" while the birds are being shot and thrown, the Rule Book addresses this

During the period from the moment when the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working or honoring dog shall remain silent. Also, in all marking tests during such period, the handler’s hands
shall remain quietly in close proximity to his body.

As for the following question


So my question to the judges is why make an issue about noise when 90% of handlers use some form of intimidation.

I think you are stretching to call the conduct you described as "intimidation."
 
#18 · (Edited)
Wouldn't it be nice if all of the FT Judges out there judged a FT in exact accordance to the AKC rule book?

Thanks for your advice Ted. Quick question, 2 handlers come to line,1 gets the dog on the mat and pushes and pulls his dog without making a noise and almost no physical movement. The next comes to line and has to smack his leg harshly say here or heel and repeats the command NO several time to get the dog to comply.

Did the second handler make any "Threatening Gestures" (sorry I mean intimidate, lol) to make his dog comply?

''or threatening gestures in such a manner that they may be an aid or threat in steadying or controlling a dog; (2) hold or touch a dog to keep him steady; or (3) noisily or frequently restrain a dog on line''
 
#19 ·
I repeat, I see no threatening gestures, I see no intimidation. You are seeing - or wanting to see - different things than I am.

I see an uncooperative dog - which in my experience - is unlikely to be successful on a tough set of marks.

If handler is going through gyrations before the handler calls for the birds and it goes on too long - like John - I will tell the handler I am calling for the birds, and give them five seconds to settle in. (If I am judging a big stake - 90+ Open, 70+ Am, I may tell the handlers that they have 30 seconds from blind before I call birds, but that is another story)

If the gyrations occur while the guns are going off, I may warn the handler or I may drop the dog depending on the nature and severity of the infraction.
 
#22 ·
If you think handlers doing those things are "intimidating" I must ask, have you ever seen a dog that was actually intimidated? Because it doesn't look like the scenario you are describing. I agree with Ted, the dog you are describing is uncooperative and could be dinged for that. Or as Ted said, will be unlikely to be successful on a tough set of marks.
 
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