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The ongoing MH entry fiasco

80K views 353 replies 112 participants last post by  DoubleHaul 
#1 ·
Now that the HT season is firing up again it is time for another discussion about what can be done to solve this ongoing problem.

I was watching the NFL playoffs Sunday when I received notice that the Rose Country Hunt Test had just opened for entries.
We jumped into action. The gentleman whom I am training with in Texas got to the computer first and got entered. I then jumped on the computer to get entered. By the time I had entered my info the test had closed all 180 spots had been filled and I was locked out. Less than five minutes had passed.
In that time frame all 180 spots got filled. In that time frame, some Handlers got more than 20 dogs entered.

It appears to me that it has evolved into a situation where having inside info as to the time when entries will open and being quick on a computer have become more important than dog training and handling skills.

I happened to have gotten a heads up as to the opening time; yet still couldn't get entered in time. How does a newcomer who has Zero contacts supposed to have a chance? Shouldn't we be encouraging new blood? If they can't get entered then we are killing off any potential newcomers from entering our sport. That doesn't bode well for the future and long term health of this game IMHO

I've got to believe that the premium service which EE offers to some pro's allowed them to get 20+ dogs entered with a click of a button, thereby allowing the test to close so quickly and precluding people such as myself and others, who have to fill manually out their credit card info, address etc from even having a chance to run one dog.
How is that fair? Wasn't the Hunt test game started to allow the average Joe who trains his own dog a venue to compete with that dog?

I'm not bashing the Pro's. They are good for the game, and help to raise the bar for all. I enjoy competing against the best. Over 70% of the slots were filled by 10 handlers within minutes. I'm just saying that this system is badly broken and needs to be more inclusive & fixed quickly.

Yesterday the Port Arthur Club was supposed to open for entries at 7:00 pm. It had been announced in the premium for some time; which at least eliminated the need for inside info as to opening date. I got on the computer and checked at 6:00 pm and it said that "ENTRIES POSTPONED" Nothing has changed since.

My only hope is that AKC and or EE had them postpone their entries so that they can take quick action to resolve this fiasco
 
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#2 ·
It is the posts like this that have me wondering if I can feasibly enter tests to run my dog. The expense of the test aside, if the spots you can actually afford to take your dog to, fill up so fast. How can the blue collar guy get a break. I can't afford to take off work and travel. I need to hit local tests. And if you can't get in that eliminates one more guy.
 
#3 ·
IDK - I have been out of the game for several years! Should I even bother to get back in? Besides Hunt Tests having this problem, do derbies and qualifying also?

Sounds very political. Is this a political issues?
 
#4 ·
mjh345 let's suppose that this test had paper (snail mail) entries. The club secretary opens the mail box to find your entry form and 200 other entries. Are you or the "new blood with no contacts" better off?
How about when you get your entry form and check returned a week after the close because you didn't get in? Better or worse not knowing if you are in or out until you get your check back?
 
#10 ·
mjh345 let's suppose that this test had paper (snail mail) entries. The club secretary opens the mail box to find your entry form and 200 other entries. Are you or the "new blood with no contacts" better offy n Kind of a DUH question isn't it Glen? Are you asking if someone who doesn't have any inside contacts or info is better off if there is truly a level playing field?? From a strictly mathematical perspective he is obviously better off when he has an equal shot at one of the 180 spots than he does in a situation where 70% of the slots are taken within 5 minutes by 10 handlers who were tipped off about the 5 minute window of opportunity. I got tipped off to the 5 minute window of opportunity and still didn't get in. How does the guy with out the tip off have any chance?
How about when you get your entry form and check returned a week after the close because you didn't get in? Better or worse not knowing if you are in or out until you get your check back I will assume this is either rhetorical or not a serious question
My answers in red
 
#5 ·
Good luck with this problem. I have been following this "fiasco" as you call it for a while on retriever club e-mails.

After working dogs off and on for 30+ years, I now have a 5 month old that has more potential than any of her predecessors. She has a long and happy road in front of her.... Please get this resolved so she can live up to her potential.

Mike
 
#6 ·
I'm not saying whether it's political. But it seems local clubs have adopted Entry Express to save hassle of doing it themselves. That opens it to the world of internet. Thus quickly filling spots and rooting average Joe out of local event. I haven't actually tried yet. But the fear is there.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Quack, you seam to believe that EE handling the entries somehow increases demand. The demand is not driven by the method of entry. People run hunt tests because they like to run hunt tests, get ribbons, title dogs, and qualify for the MN. It's not because they can enter through EE.

And if you ever want to see something political, watch a club secretary and board members filter through 200+ entries picking and choosing which 180 get in.
 
#7 ·
No Dew it is mot political. It's simple supply and demand. There are more customers than the system (event) can handle. No one is going to worry about how to get new people into the game when every event is selling out in 5 minutes.

And no, field trial events do not limit entries so you shouldn't worry about getting into a derby or Qual. 90% of the field going home every weekend without a ribbon tends to keep the demand in check. ;-)
 
#24 ·
No Dew it is mot political. It's simple supply and demand. There are more customers than the system (event) can handle. No one is going to worry about how to get new people into the game when every event is selling out in 5 minutes.
and that is very short sighted thinking. A club that is selling out in 5 minutes to people entering 20 dogs at a time will not be getting "NEW" players. And believe me that will trickle up to hurt the pros as well.
 
#11 · (Edited)
mjh, The same happened to me. I am one of the new bloods. I got a text when this test opened; I stopped what I was doing, grabbed the ipad and was online within a minute. By the time I got my CC info in the test was full. I am not retired, and while I can take off work if I so desire, I don't want to travel several states north to run a hunt test. I don't care about the MNH, just trying to finish out the last few tests I need to get MH(would have already been accomplished if I had been able to get in some more tests last HT season), on my dog and focus on the FT's. Looks like I may just be running the FT's and forget about the MH. It's beyond frustrating, but Like Captain said who is going to be worrying about new blood when demand is so high the tests are filling up in a matter of minutes.

The solutions are out there and have been proposed to even the playing field of getting entered. It seems no one cares to make a change as long as these tests are filling up this fast and AKC is getting their money and the clubs have full tests.
 
#198 ·
As a barrel racer- I've been playing this game of getting entered for years. Before Internet it meant calling and getting a busy signal for hours trying to get into a rodeo.

I dont have have the answer, and get equally frustrated when I dont get in- but also am a bit more accepting of it.
 
#23 ·
The Rose County test is a prime example of how the existing system will drive away future growth of the program. The MN qualifications are the root of this issue. I know not all dogs names on EE are current with titles so my numbers are probably low, but this particular test has 103 of 181 dogs entered that already have an MH behind their name. I don't want to take away from anyone's reason for running a test but when you have a program to title against a standard and people can't get into it time and time again because the real competition of the day is getting a slot ahead of a dog that has proven that they can meet the defined standard then they are going to find someplace else to go. I personally feel that there should be a period of time where untitled dogs can enter and then after that anyone can enter. I also feel that the test opening dates should be set up similar to the closing dates, say it opens 4 weeks prior to the event on Sunday at 4:00 Pm or something along those lines.

The hunt test program is a great program for anyone who loves their dogs, and I want to see it grow, unfortunately I fear that the current direction it is headed is going to hurt our future. I also am concerned that the rules and set-ups continue to change for the wrong reasons. The original standards were great to measure a set level of a dog, but we now are changing the standard because we are testing a dog that met the standard as a 2 year old and now he is still running by against the same standard as an 8 year old who obviously has increased his skills and experience over the past 6 years.

These are just some thoughts of mine, hopefully they spark positive conversation that can result in improvements for everyone. And as a side note my dog is on a pro truck so I support the need for guys like myself who also runs his own dog as well as the pro who runs her when I cant.
 
#32 ·
The hunt test program is a great program for anyone who loves their dogs, and I want to see it grow...
The MNH and the surplus of entries are a tremendous opportunity for it to grow. We have demand for more entries than we have slots. We need to turn that somehow into a way to create more slots, which is what would grow the sport - more dogs, more handlers, more revenue, more people involved etc.

The problem is how to increase the number of slots. If we don't, in the long term it's going to collapse because the folks that put on these events as volunteers are not being replenished by new blood fast enough, and grounds that can be used aren't getting more available. The AKC and professional trainers stand to gain the most from the increased growth as entry fee revenues increase and numbers of folks wanting professionally trained dogs increase. Seems like those two groups ought to get together and figure out ways they can help clubs grow and help clubs find land to train and test on, and increase the incentive for clubs/club members to put on events. Maybe require pros to be members of the clubs they run events at (or some variation on that)?
 
#29 ·
How ow many times has that been answered? Very limited NAHRA to the point that they are not in most areas. HRC and AKC are two different games and most don't like the other. If I am dressing in camo from head to toe you can bet I will be shooting live birds.
 
#27 ·
There is a very large club in the south east that is not going to use EE for its four master flight event. They are going to accept entries on their website and allow no more than four dogs to be entered at a time by anyone. I am sure one of them will post on this thread. It will eliminate the abuse that takes place with the EE VIP program, or those who get tipped off and fill all the entries by registering 20 dogs at once. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out because pro entries are usually high at this event with lots of pros running a lot of dogs.
More power to em. Somebody has to do something and they are at least trying.
 
#28 ·
There are online tools that you can set for events to show up, or phrases so that anytime that event or phrase shows up, you get instantly emailed and possibly text messaged. I know when I took a managing technology class, there were Google analytic tools that could do this. Companies use them to see anytime their name is used on the internet to see if anything bad is happening to their name.

Maybe there are people that know how to use these tools that are filling these events so fast.

Good luck.
 
#36 ·
Not sure why AKC doesn't get the message. This is totally wrong...............
AKC Hunt test are for the weekend warriors, NOT Pro's handling some client's dog.
Pros belong in the FT game against other Pros.
Make all AKC HT's open only to the owners of the dawgs, to run/handle period.
What satisfaction could a HT owner have with a Pro running & titling there dog in the 1st place. After all it's just pass or fail.
Knough said, get with it, the Pros have polluted the HT arena.
 
#38 ·
MJH probably wasn't around during the snail mail days. Therefore doesn't understand the post. He also doesn't understand the responsibilities of the club secretary. EE is a HUGE help. And it's not EE responsibility whatsoever.

Our club is in a region where we don't get a lot of entries. We are happy to get 30 master entries.

Hindsight is 20/20. This topic has been beat to death. Limit test entries because of lack of grounds, lack of help, lack of judges etc. If you don't like it and are that hung up about getting into an event...then you'll have to travel. You could also move. But don't move here. I like to enter my events at 11:45pm before it closes at 11:59, 10 days prior to the event. :)
 
#41 ·
So, I have the fix. It would take care of all of your objections and level tbe playing field, no discrimination, etc that everyone is harping about. But. Before I give you the solution, let me just state this, I don't believe for one second that anyone really wants a level playing field, I think the folks complaining about the fast sell outs just want to get their own dogs entered.

So here is your chance to prove me wrong, and it can start with TRC's 4 master flight paper entry test...

1. Accept an unlimited number of entries.

2. After the event is closed, let's assume you get 300 entries for 240 (60 x 4) slots.

3. Now hold a public (yes public so no picking your buddies) draw and randomly select the 240 dogs who will get in.

There you go, this is the only way (other than using EE, of course) to ensure that everyone has an equal shot at getting into a test. And it couldn't be more simple or fair.

Make it happen TRC.
 
#60 ·
So, I have the fix. It would take care of all of your objections and level tbe playing field, no discrimination, etc that everyone is harping about. But. Before I give you the solution, let me just state this, I don't believe for one second that anyone really wants a level playing field, I think the folks complaining about the fast sell outs just want to get their own dogs entered.

So here is your chance to prove me wrong, and it can start with TRC's 4 master flight paper entry test...

1. Accept an unlimited number of entries.

2. After the event is closed, let's assume you get 300 entries for 240 (60 x 4) slots


3. Now hold a public (yes public so no picking your buddies) draw and randomly select the 240 dogs who will get in.

There you go, this is the only way (other than using EE, of course) to ensure that everyone has an equal shot at getting into a test. And it couldn't be more simple or fair.

Make it happen TRC.
From what I understand it won't be a paper entry. But what do I know. I'm just a member.
 
#42 ·
American Kennel Club
James P. Crowley
Executive Secretary
260 Madison Avenue, Fourth Floor
New York, NY 10016

To whom it may concern;

I am writing to you today to address a very serious matter that is directly affecting the ability of handlers to enter and compete in American Kennel Club (AKC) sanctioned hunting tests for retrievers. Please consider this letter a formal complaint alleging prejudicial conduct as per, Section IV “Conduct Prejudicial to the Sport” of the Dealing with Misconduct Guide for Event Committees amended December 11, 2013. This letter serves as a request for an immediate investigation by the AKC.

Chapter 1, Section 4 of the Regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers amended December 2012 addresses entry requirements. The regulations and guidelines clearly state there are to be no special inducements. Specifically, “A hunt test-giving club which accepts an entry fee other than that published in its premium list or entry form, or in any way discriminates between entrants, shall be disciplined. No club or member of any club shall give or offer to give any owner or handler any special inducements, such as reduced entry fees, allowances for board or transportation or other incentive of value for a certain number of entries or shall give or offer to give in consideration of entering a certain number of dogs, any prizes or prize money, except the officially advertised prizes or prize money, which prize money shall be for a stated sum or a portion of the entry fees [emphasis added].”

The vast majority of AKC Hunting Retriever Clubs are using an online service for the management of entries to AKC sanctioned retriever hunt tests, www.EntryExpress.net. Entry Express has created a VIP program to process the entries of only “high volume handlers” such as professional trainers. By design, the VIP program openly discriminates amongst entrants in clear violation of Chapter 1, Section 4 of the Regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers. The VIP program allows select entrants to enter an unlimited number of dogs to events with limited entries with the simple click of a mouse without paying for the entries in advance. Only VIP entrants are permitted to enter events without paying for the entry in advance as all other entrants must do. Entry Express has further enshrined this discriminatory practice but closing acceptance into the VIP program to those currently in the VIP program. For further information on the Entry Express VIP program please refer to: https://www.entryexpress.net/Vip.aspx.

This discriminatory practice of managing entries by Entry Express has been further compounded by the overwhelming demand to enter “Master level” AKC Retriever Hunting Tests. “Master level” limited entry AKC Hunting Retriever tests have in some cases filled to capacity within minutes of opening for entries on Entry Express at a predetermined time that has not been publically disclosed. This discriminatory practice has allowed VIP entrants in some cases to enter 15+ dogs to an event limited to 60 dogs in seconds without paying for entry fees much to the detriment of amateur handlers who must enter and pay entry fees for their dogs.
Clubs that except and allow dogs to compete that have been entered through the VIP program are guilty of discrimination. Handlers that are excluded from entering can file a complaint within 5 days of the event as per AKC hunt test regulations.


The AKC Hunting Retriever test program was specially created for amateur handlers as an alternative to Retriever Field Trials. I believe it to be quite prejudicial to the sport that discriminatory practices such as the Entry Express VIP program give professional handlers preferential treatment, to the impairment of the average amateur handler who has an exceedingly difficult time in entering limited entry events.

I appreciate your swift actions in resolving this matter and offer my assistance to you in correcting this discriminatory entry practice.

Very Respectfully,


Ed Wojciechowski
1590 Tyson Road
Monticello, FL 32344

920-858-8140
ed@marshandglen.com
 
#43 ·
American Kennel Club December 15, 2014
Performance Events Department
P.O. Box 90051
Raleigh N.C. 27675-9051
Attention:
Doug Ljungren
Vice President of Sporting & Events

Jerry Mann
Field Director Sporting Group

Gentlemen
The enclosed document was submitted per AKC procedure. If a club accepts entries that used the VIP system and the dogs participated in the event then an owner that has been discriminated against has the right to file a complaint against the club. The VIP system discriminates thus individuals that are excluded from an event because of VIP entrants has a right to file a complaint. Dogs that are entered through a system that discriminates should then be disqualified as per AKC Hunt Test Rules. This is a request to review the information and render a favorable ruling on behalf of the Amateur handler.
Respectfully

Ed Wojciechowski
1590 Tyson Road
Monticello, FL 32344

920-858-8140
ed@marshandglen.com
 
#44 ·
The two letters were mailed on December 15. Still waiting for a response. There will those that agree and those that will not ,
so be it. I will not respond ,but I will continue the fight for equality.
 
#49 ·
So are you all saying it's not possible to increase the supply of entry slots? It seems crazy to me that the discussions on this center around how to decide who gets the limited slots available instead of figuring out a way to make more slots available.

Clubs should raise the prices for MH tests until they start not filling up - club makes more money - demand for the slots goes down until equilibrium is reached. As it is, the clubs are selling the master hunter slots for less than they could. Who benefits from that? Clubs ought to maximize their profits - if they were making more money to put on a test, they might decide to have more tests and put more work into the tests.
 
#62 ·
Clubs should raise the prices for MH tests until they start not filling up
- club makes more money - demand for the slots goes down until equilibrium is reached. As it is, the clubs are selling the master hunter slots for less than they could. Who benefits from that? Clubs ought to maximize their profits - if they were making more money to put on a test, they might decide to have more tests and put more work into the tests.
This seems like the most intelligent option to me. Economics 101 folks, if there is more demand than supply, raise the price until demand drops or someone steps up to increase supply.
 
#50 ·
I've written to propose a truly blind draw for all limit entry tests. AKC and MNRC have my proposal with clarifications. They promised to discuss it at AKC's meeting in February. I've been closed out of 3 of 4 tests in my local area this winter. Trying to get that elusive MH title on my Standard Poodle but it's really hard when you don't even get to try. Still love training and the time I spend with my dog, but frustration will drive us from even caring about AKC HTs if something doesn't change. I do think that EE's VIP program is inherently unfair to those who are not in the program. I logged into one test last week that showed one opening and by the time I entered by CC information and hit the send button, it was already full again.
 
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