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Confused About Correcting/Teaching "No" to Young Pup...

10K views 64 replies 26 participants last post by  DarrinGreene 
#1 ·
I have a 10 week old BLM pup and am using the Hillmann puppy program for training. In the Hillmann program, Bill stresses not using any "correction" while training and doesn't really address how to handle typical puppy behaviors such as nipping, barking in the crate, chewing on unacceptable items and general, unacceptable behavior.

So, for a guy following the Hillmann program with a new pup, how do I deal with these puppy issues? I certainly don't want to break his spirit (he's got loads of it!) and don't want to compromise the bond we've created but I also cannot let him run wild in the house and do whatever he likes. My instinct says to reprimand him with scruffs, muzzle squeezes and stern "No" commands when he does things that he shouldn't but I thought I'd check here to see what some of you with experience following the Hillmann training program think?...
 
#4 ·
I did ask in an email to Mary but I didn't really get an answer. I know they are very busy people and Mary has been super friendly and helpful but I guess I didn't want to bother her with every question I have along the way.

Yes, I have an 8 year old daughter. Not sure why you ask?
 
#10 ·
I could be wrong, but I believe he is referring to corrections in the field, not so much in the house. I use "no bite", "quiet" "leave it" with my pups and they understand it pretty quickly. It also doesn't seem to affect their work in the field. Once they know commands like sit and kennel, I will correct them for disobedience in the house, but only for things they understand and know. I'm not talking about killing one or beating it for not performing a command, but no response to the "sit" command will result in a tap on the butt with my hand to reinforce the command. This doesn't seem to damage them in any way. I think training them to be a good citizen and polite in the house is one of the things most pro trainers encourage before a pup enters into a formal program. Good luck with your pup :)
 
#14 ·
Bill did a video for general dog owners showing his concepts (he used a Jack Russel Terrier as his demo dog... kid you not) but I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the tape. He's pretty clear that "No" is part of the dog's life. He has a scene where a lab "puppy" gets corrected for jumping up on a car door or something.

So, it's in the field that everything is very positive and up-beat. Good manners though, are part of life.
 
#15 ·
I saw a video of his working with a Jack Russel but there was no correction in it either. I think I've watched every one of his videos online as well as all of "Art and Science" and "Training a Retriever Puppy" but haven't really gotten a firm grasp on how he'd recommend administering correction to a young pup who is doing wrong...

Any chance you could post a link to the video you mention?
 
#16 ·
In the house I use the no command on my pup and it didn't take long for her to learn it. The first refusal I got I just picked her up gently off her front legs by the scruff of the neck, waited for the pup to go limp, repeated the command no in a normal voice and let her back down. After the second try she had the idea. It may not be how some would address the issue but it works for me. If you have kids in the house you want to be sure everyone is on the same page with the training commands.
 
#17 ·
For whatever reason, if I scruff my pup even gently, he screams bloody murder. Most pups I've dealt with just kind of went limp when grabbed by the scruff but this guy seems very sensitive to it. It may just be because he's seen zero aggression so far and is shocked and scared by it. (I'm not talking about anything remotely aggressive either, just if I grab a hold of his scruff to gain control of him for any reason...)

This is why I'm asking. To make sure that I don't make any major mistakes that will set us back or compromise our relationship and training in the future...
 
#21 ·
As an owner of a 10 week old blf I totally understand your questions and frustrations. And having just lost our 16 year old blf I obviously understand what a big part of our lives, day in and day out they are.
that said , we have certainly been using NO a lot. Since they are siblings, our girl is Very spirited too. I would guess Bill means not to use too strong a correction at this stage. But we can't let the pups run wild in the house.
and I didn't understand the question about kids either. Pm me if you need to commiserate MN hunter!
 
#22 ·
Try not to overthink it too much and use common sense. These are puppies. They need guidance, firmness, fairness or they will get worse and naughty and zero respect for you, they won't love you more because you don't hold them to some standard of civilized behavior. You aren't going to ruin your field training by instilling house manners. Zillions of us over the years have managed to teach our pups not to bite, chew, bark/whine in the house/crate/vehicle, and still manage to have dogs that love us and work well in the field. No training program is the holy grail nor can they cover every aspect of every moment of raising a puppy, some common sense and general ability to reason for one's self are inferred in most. Be fair, consistent but train your puppy to the standard you want, in the house. Easier now than later. And more fair, to establish the houserules now vs changing them later. Let them be a puppy, yes, but help guide them into being a nice puppy.
 
#23 ·
I need to write and article or do a presentation on this for my basic obedience business but here is what I tell people about the word "NO" and why I don't use it...

NO - what does NO mean to a dog? It means 100 things.... stop nipping, stop barking, don't run there, put that mulch down it means like 100 different things. Mostly, dogs don't do well with fuzzy instructions like that!

So then what does NO really end up meaning if you put a chin cuff or a muzzle squeeze or other "correction/deterrent" directly behind it? It means one thing and one thing only to the dog... something BAD is about to happen to you. It becomes a bridge (or marker) to a bad consequence. Dogs will stop a behavior because of it but it's just because they are nervous/distracted, not because they really understand your instruction. There's no way they have the intellect to generalize the meaning like a human does.

Add to that the human element where we raise our voice and give strong body language (instinctively) and all we end up with is a dog that hears or sees a certain thing and starts shrinking because he's anticipating BAD things.

Then the question becomes... do we really want that in our dogs? I personally don't and I feel very strongly about that! I want my dog to work with me, have confidence in me and know he'll be treated fairly by me at all times. I never want him shrinking or putting his head down. I don't ever want him made nervous by my presence. That's just me and maybe those things are OK with you, in which case stop reading, otherwise here are a few suggestions.

In general what I try to do to counter behaviors I (or my clients) don't want is to teach young pup a good behavior that counter acts the objectionable one. Some simple examples are:

jumping = teach a good sit (reward based without verbal command)
nipping = teach LEAVE IT (susan garrett's It's Yer Choice)
barking = ignore it if possible otherwise teach quiet with rewards
chewing = more exercise and COME + release (in exchange for a treat with a puppy)

Good example happening right now. I have a 10 mo old lab here that a client gave me. He's a bit bored right now and picking up socks and such to go chew. I have called him to me 3 times and take socks from him. I taught him this with food and now it is just habitual for him to come and give me the item. While I'm typing this I put him in his crate to keep him out of trouble and when I'm done we will go outside and do 15 or 20 minutes of obedience training. After that he will be more relaxed and the objectionable behavior will cease until later today when I will work/exercise him again.

What have I done here? Four things actually... 1 - come 2 - give/leave it 3 - kennel 4 - exercise

You have a choice. Patience/teaching/persistence or NO = correction

Choose wisely
 
#28 ·
Personally I think this is garbage ^^^^

No is as important as sit and here both at home and in the field. They are my three primary commands (plus back).

I think I have chosen just fine, as have the very accomplished pros and amateurs I train with. My dogs have NEVER been fearful of a verbal "no."
 
#25 ·
You can do both, Darrin, without ruining the pup and making them a cowering, quivering mess. While I agree with the redirection, teaching sit for jumping, exchange objects, leave it, etc, at some point, mine are also going to learn than no means no, whatever it is, knock it off and if they don't, there will be repercussions. I have many dogs living in compliance in my house, that is first and foremost above anything, including field training. They aren't to destroy my things, put their teeth on humans in any way, or each other beyond normal dog play, they are to kennel when told, or go to their spot/room and they should shut up when told and sometimes, that requires more than a cookie or a verbal command. I use crates/expens for puppies, they can't be expected to be reliable so young, but when one gets a lampcord in its little jaws, pup needs to learn asap that cords are absolute no no. I don't run a prison, the dogs are on the furniture, hang around the table at mealtimes, get in the way in the kitchen, they can be as obnoxious with visitors as the next dog, but they need to learn my houserules to my tolerance, and, no means no and not everything is going to get rewarded with a cookie. If I gave a cookie to every dog that picked up something and brought it to me, I'd have some mighty fat dogs. It's pretty amazing how fast they can connect a behavior to a treat and then recreate that behavior solely to get that cookie and sometimes it goes too far the other direction. Same reason I don't teach my pups to ring a bell to go outside. Balance in everything. Mostly life is good but sometimes, there is a penalty for crossing a line.

We also are pretty good about keeping things picked up that pups chew, like shoes, socks, etc. We try to limit opportunity for that sort of thing. There is a box of toys for the youngsters, those are the dogs, everything else is mine. There is the occasional mishap, a pillow gets pulled into a crate and unstuffed. a dog bed meets its maker, nobody's perfect, but overall, we live in controlled chaos, considering how many are in the house. And nobody that meets my dogs would ever say they are nervous, head ducking, cowering messes around me, or that they don't think the sun rises and sets with me. Even after being gone for months to the trainer, they are beside themselves to see me again.

Positive teaching, absolutely, especially for getting pup to recall, making being near you, coming to you, the best thing ever, pockets full of treats all the time for that, with puppies. But I'm not afraid to correct a pup either. Balance, common sense and use all the tools at one's disposal.
 
#49 ·
LIKE LIKE LIKE!!! Great post, Kim!
 
#26 ·
I've read Darrin's posts on NO before and think there is some real wisdom in it. If my dog goes somewhere she shouldn't be, like into the toy box, I call her to me. Jumping gets a sit. However, I've got a couple little kids. If my dog tries taking a cracker from my sons hand, I'm going to give a firm NO. Redirecting is the better route, but I do think there is a place for NO.
 
#27 ·
I reserve "NO" in the beginning mostly for not biting human flesh. For many of these mouthy field dogs, they must be physically shown not to bite. I use the lip pinch when they bite. They are also very intelligent, so if the reprimand does not phase them, you must do it harder to make an impression. Do not just grab their snout because all that does is makes them mad and then we have the family afraid of the puppy. Get it over with and done. They will lick your hand when it is working. It may take a couple of times, but it's part of growing up with a family. It's normal to bite their littermates, but they can't bite the humans. This first lesson goes a long way in being a good household citizen.

Get a squirt bottle and fill it with water for barking in the crate.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Let me clear about something.

I presented an alternative viewpoint to that which some people have. I never said anyone was wrong or that anything was impossible.

I simply said I prefer to look at this issue differently and gave my rationale for why.

I NEVER EVER said anyone was training wrong or that my way was better, only that it was a different approach.

If people don't want to think it through with an open mind, then that's OK.

I educate/train about 20 complete newbs a week in basic obedience. What I posted is what I have found over a couple of years works best for those people. What works for you or any other poster on this board could be different.

I prefer to keep things as close to 100% straightforward for the dog as possible and feel that using terms that mean several different things is not practical (or fair).

It could be NO or oly oly oxenfree for all I care. If all is means is that a correction is coming, I won't use it.

There are plenty of clear ways to add repercussions to things. HERE is a favorite of mine.
 
#32 ·
Darrin: That is all good and fine except you are posting a response to person I would imagine is going to train their retriever for working purposes NOT complete newbs doing basic OB for a loosely controllable house dog. The audience and the endpoint matters.
 
#30 ·
I think the OP is looking for corrections for "young dogs" meaning 7-10 week old pups and not older CC dogs. There is much that can be done with young pups to institute respect and obedience before the CC phase.
 
#31 ·
Actually, Darrin, you implied quite a bit, about the use of the word "no" and any kind of physical correction. Some of which was a tad skewed and offensive. Whether you intended it or not.
 
#33 ·
Bottom line, OP has a 10 week old Lab pup. He's afraid correcting will ruin the pup, or at least, interfere with his Hillmann training. I don't follow Hillmann, I've seen his videos. Pups can be taught not to bite and not be naughty wild heathens destroying everything in their path and waking up the neighbors, whatever method you want to use. They won't break if you say no. It's just another word. What you do with it to make it mean something is up to you. They won't turn into cowering nervous dogs as long as the methods are fair and balanced. No need for muddying the waters with endless debates on terminology and methods and theory. Just be fair, use common sense.
 
#37 ·
I don't use ANY command for biting....they just get a very sharp and quick pinch where ever I can get them, with no verbal attached to it.They find out as 8 week old pups there is always a consequence for biting and very quickly stop doing THAT.
I for one do not use the NO command much , I tell them what to do , not what not to do . ( leave it, Off, here, ....)
I agree with Kim , you can absolutely teach the pup with corrections to be a good pet , while fostering all the good stuff that goes with retrieving
 
#38 ·
Rainmaker just don't over think it. In my mind it is absolutely imperative to correct the dog with unwanted behavior. You don't have to put a bunch a pressure on your pup for him to understand what No means. If you can interupt his thought pattern while chewing or whatever else it is that he is doing with a quick poke, or physically removing him from the situation with a stern NO, he will get the idea. You have to get his attention and make sure he understands that what he is doing is not permissible. Like I said, this is just my opinion but I don't believe you are going to break the dogs spirit by putting your hands on him. It will do much more harm if you avoid it. He has to know that you are in charge and he has to learn his boundaries. Good luck!
 
#40 ·
Just watch 'em in the litter. What does Mom do when she gets tired of puppy's shenanigans?

JS
 
#43 ·
Just remember puppies come in different intensities, and I think that the owner picks up on those that they can get away with a "gentle" correction or an "oow" and those that it doesn't even phase. Whenever this subject comes up, invariably someone has an easy one. I have listened to one puppy biting another and it sounds like the bitee is being torn apart. Does that make the biter stop? What does Mom do is right? Just remember, the longer it goes on, the harder it is to correct because the puppy is bigger.

As far as carrying "NO" out into the field, that is a whole other topic. I rarely say "NO" except a soft "no bird" with a poison bird. If they have to pick up a poison bird later it's "leave it". It is way overused on line trying to get a line. I like "NO" to have a clear meaning.
 
#50 ·
If your not understanding on author and his material get another. Some times one guy's presentation will "just click" while another just does not. Not to say one is bad, just does not click with your ideas and views.
Don and Crew
 
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