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UKC/HRC - Help me out ?

9K views 45 replies 24 participants last post by  Colonel Blimp 
#1 ·
I'm not asking for a debate or argumentation on why or If you support or not support the organisation.
Just looking for 'clarity'
The rule book states ''Test Standard'' - UKC/HRC Clubs will conduct tests consistent with an actual day's hunt afield.

The shooter/handler is sitting on a bucket in the middle of a field or edge of water. I presume this is to simulate while wild fowling in a blind?
But there is no blind? huh! , and the interpretation of the rules is ''You are not allowed to stand up while shooting'' ?.....

I've never or very rarely sat down and shot ducks or geese whilst in a hide/blind ,and the dog is almost always in the hide/blind with me.
So why are the tests done in the open where there is no blind/hide and the dog has 'open view' ,and why the sit down rule?

Just doesn't seem like it's 'consistent with an actual day's hunt afield'?
Thanks
Robert
 
#2 ·
I have set up plenty of tests where the handler is standing while shooting.
 
#4 ·
Lets be honest here, a hunt test will NEVER be just like hunting. They all try to make it fun and test your dogs skills but the ONLY thing that is just like hunting is hunting.
 
#5 · (Edited)
HRC is usually off a bucket, or a dove chair. However I ran them out of duck blinds, out of layout blinds, with dogs in huts, off tree-stands while standing in water in waders, and standing up. The judges can get as inventive as they want. Still I believe most are ran off the bucket to help handlers out; (particularly when you have a working and honor dog) with proper gun handling; and not get people kicked out for swinging a gun the wrong way, endangering a dog or setting a gun down unsafely. The bucket gives a handler a station with a safe direction of swing, a gun-stand, and primers in easy reaching; so when (if) things go wrong, you can set things down quickly and not put yourself out. Many people are not comfortable with a real gun, and need all the help they can get :) This is very true in seasoned tests, where the dog and the handler might not be that experienced, and handlers tend to panic with higher strung dogs ;).
 
#15 ·
Yes, the judges have a lot of latitude in what they set up. I believe in as much realism as possible. I always try to set up tests that mimic hunting situations as closely as I can. I often set up water tests with the dog on a dog stand and the handler in waders (if the grounds are conducive). I have set up land tests where the handlers are in layout blinds. I try to use as much natural cover for the wingers as I can and brush the hides when natural cover isn't available. I LOVE to set up Finished tests in flooded timber or stick ponds. It is not necessary to have long marks or blinds if the ones you have are properly placed.
 
#7 ·
It perfectly simulates how I hunt in a lot of areas. My bucket carries my shells and camo netting, and carry in my dekes over by back and shotgun. I sit on a bucket in a make shift blind, and do 80% of my shooting off of the bucket. 10% is done while I am standing in the water fixing decoys, and the other is when I am out sending the dog for a retrieve or stretching my legs.
 
#8 ·
There is no rule saying you must sit. The bucket is put there by judges to help . You are on the same level as your dog and if the dog swings with a gun it is much easier to get them to see all marks. I have run several finish where the bucket was there but judges did not make you sit. Up to the handler. Also I think if clubs had more equip and holding blinds, some judges might set up a area to work from, but that is also asking a lot from clubs already having money issues.
 
#9 ·
I watched a HRC finished test last year where the dog had to stand on a very big log (just like a typical timber hunt.)
For the blind, the bird was placed on top of a small stump. Handler had to shoot all of the marks standing because the water was almost knee deep.
If your dog creped everyone knew it...(SPLASH!)
 
#21 ·
I ran a seasoned test where the dogs were on a tree stand. The toughest part for some of the dogs was getting up on the stand if they weren't trained to "kennel" on objects. Even though we hadn't trained for that specific setup, we were ready for it. It was a fun test.
 
#11 ·
When I judge I don't care. But I also make Seasoned and Started tests real hunting tests with the birds in reasonable shooting and retrieving range. In Finished and in Master, there has been very little if any actual hunting scenarios in these tests for years.
I have had judges tell me that I have had to sit on the bucket. Most don't care. If that is what floats their boat, so be it.
In the end, these upper level events are retrieving tests that test training, not necessarily actual hunting scenarios.
MP
 
#23 · (Edited)
So Mike if the birds are falling in gun range it is just like " real hunting "? You set up in the dark, sit for an hour and wait for ducks, live birds fly into your test, some get shot some fly off.
 
#12 ·
Most judges don't care if you sit on the bucket. As Mike said, if it is what the judge wants then I sit on the bucket. No rule but it can be considered an element of the test.

As far as the blind goes, a big part of what HRC tests is marking and memory. A dog inside a blind cannot be tested on marking & memory if it didn't see the fall. I have ran on a dog stand, out of a mut hut and on an orange bucket in the open. Dog didn't care & in each case the dogs were tested to the standard.

It is a fun game but not hunting.
 
#13 ·
It is a fun game but not hunting.
That's what I thought . Rules should be scrapped from what I have now received the full copy and read through :D.
Our 'tests' in the UK are pretty much the same. ''Nothing like a hunt day'' .Just a bit of fun.
It was the quote 'replicate a day in the field' that got me curious.
Thanks Guy's. You are not that different regards competitions after all ;)
 
#17 ·
I hope this isn't considered hijacking the thread, but there is one thing I have seen regularly at the few tests I have attended that I don't agree keep with simulating a days hunting in the field. This is when the gunners shoot the first bird right handed and then switch to shoot the remaining birds left handed (or vice versa). I understand it is done to help the dog follow the swing of the gun, but I have yet to see someone shoot like that during an actual hunt. Are there not any rules against the handlers doing this?
 
#18 ·
I axed the same question in January at the Judges seminar I was required to attend this year. There were 2 field reps teaching the seminar. They both said that as long as the handler is operating/pointing the gun in a safe manner, there isn't a problem with it.
 
#26 ·
The shooter/handler is sitting on a bucket in the middle of a field or edge of water. I presume this is to simulate while wild fowling in a blind?
But there is no blind? huh! , and the interpretation of the rules is ''You are not allowed to stand up while shooting'' ?.....

I've never or very rarely sat down and shot ducks or geese whilst in a hide/blind ,and the dog is almost always in the hide/blind with me.
So why are the tests done in the open where there is no blind/hide and the dog has 'open view' ,and why the sit down rule?

Just doesn't seem like it's 'consistent with an actual day's hunt afield'?
I can attest to sitting on a bucket out in the open in many real hunts. I have several spots within close distance to my house that I will hunt before work. Legal shooting time is one half hour before sunrise and it is still pretty dark at this time. I am usually picked up and heading to work shortly after sunrise. No need for blinds, hides or anything besides my bucket, my dog, my gun and a dozen decoys. Sitting on the ground sucks.
 
#27 ·
Typical Southwest Louisiana September teal setups:




Dove hunts are much the same, only most often without the water.

Of course we also hunt, and sometimes test, from more substantial blinds, but logistical realities have seen a lot of that go by the wayside since the HRC's early days. As for sitting vs standing to shoot, I know very few folks who feel they have to stand to shoot in the above scenarios, and I've never heard a HRC judge say you have to stay seated, only the contrary.

Regardless, those looking for something to complain about can find it most anywhere.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I remember running a seasoned test many years ago out of a canoe. It was in extremely shallow water so that the weight of the dog and handler anchored it securely to the bottom. They had to do this for liability reasons, but it was still neat and I appreciated the imagination. Another memorable test I ran under Bubba Joiner did a very nice job of simulating a flooded timber hunt (blinds are not typically used in flooded timber hunts). I'm pretty sure the handler stood during the test. I can't remember whether the dogs were on a dog stand or not.

Some important things to remember about using the "cool" elements (which I like) which better simulate hunting, at least in the sense of having "all the trappings" are:

1) If the club provides a piece of equipment (dog stand, boat, etc.) then they assume at least some potential liability for the failure of that item.
2) If the club provides a piece of equipment (dog stand, boat, etc.) and that piece of equipment fails or becomes unfit of for use for the remainder of the test then you have to change the test and now all of the dogs running did not run the same test. For instance a dog stand becomes rickety during the test and has to be abandoned. One handler says "my dog was freaked out by the rickety, wobbly dog stand and didn't see the marks. Some of the dogs didn't have to run from the dog stand, so that was a different test." This handler has a point. Again, I like the "cool stuff" but these things have to be considered. 5 gallon buckets are in good supply, rarely fail, are easily replaced and just happen to be a fairly optimal seat height.
3) If I were a judge I would be less likely to make your dog work from a dog stand or even a boat because these things, while adding realism, promote steadiness. In training many people use place boards, mats and other objects to promote steadiness. Many would say the best place boards are elevated, if only a few inches off the ground...sounds a lot like a dog stand doesn't it?
4) Running a hunt test from an actual blind would be cool but as a dog handler I am not going to be happy about a marking test in which my dog's ability to see (and thus mark) is inhibited. When you consider the difference in height in the dogs run at these tests (from Boykins to small Labs to big Labs or Chessies) it would be difficult to easily construct a good temporary blind (it is on someone else's land after all) which provides concealment (thus a realistic blind) and allows for retrievers of all sizes and breeds to see well and thus mark well from within. I do recall at least 2-3 times in AKC tests, handling the dog from within a blind but the dog was positioned outside the blind (remote sends), but cannot recall doing that in any HRC tests.

HRC premiums routinely state that waders may be required. In my experience (only running tests in GA, TN, SC, NC) they are needed in only RARE instances. It is a good idea to have them because one never knows when rainfall may turn the little creek that has to be crossed into something that easily exceeds knee boot height and for other reasons as well, but I agree with those who thought that wading in chest deep water is excessive. I'm tall but everyone is not so that has to be taken into consideration. Also if you are going to have 60 handlers wading in and out to the line and back, someone is going to trip on something under the water or slip and fall...and the path in and out tends to get more treacherous from handler 1 to handler 60.
 
#31 ·
HuntinDawg thanks for the reply.
I will be judging at an event soon where the set up is to replicate as near possible a day shooting including wildfowling ,walk up, pigeon/duck hide,driven game,rough shooting all in a 'test' environment with spectators.
We can only try and achieve utopia but never ever replicate it .
 
#32 ·
Good luck with that! If folks over there are anything like Americans, someone will find something to complain about. Over here handlers commonly begin complaining before the first dog has run.
 
#33 ·
I think that most of the posts here represent a large portion of the HRC group. I do think that the rules are aimed at making a test fair, and easy to be consistent on the set ups. As one posted about difficulties encountered by handicapped people, I have not been to a test where that occurred. But it is certainly to be considered. In as far as shooting from a bucket, while I have done it, I cant say that I liked it. A bucket is uncomfortable and most of the time to short for most folks. I have run tests that required to you to be in a duck blind, (no lay downs) and the dog to be on a porch outside the blind. thus allowing the dog unrestricted view of all marks. other than not all areas have water like this to set up in, it is by far, the closer to being what the game was originally supposed to be. But as with most of the shooting games (trap, skeet and SC ) people just want to make things easier to succeed. I certainly can understand about wading chest deep in mud, but water over your knees should not be left out due to you being physically unable to participate. there are plenty of tests that will accommodate the majority of folks. I hope that the folks who don't hunt but like games will understand that a lot of us do hunt and would like things to be more realistic than what is currently considered to be acceptable. Thanks JB
 
#42 · (Edited)
Robert,

Not big on wood pigeon over decoys in your neck of the woods then?

'V' shaped front to the net hide, sitting on an old oil drum, and shooting them whilst sitting (you, not the birds, though it does happen! ;)) I've shot literally thousands like that, as per below. You are better concealed, and don't generate as much movement as swinging the gun whilst standing. Your back will soon give out if you're on your feet for five or six hours. All my pigeon shooting dogs wound up as deaf as I am.









Eug
 
#43 ·
Looks ..and sounds good Eug !
I always sit in the pigeon hide but get up to shoot over it ! Well the bang is going to give your position away anyway, so you I figure I better hit the one or ones I'm shooting at ;)
I can always have a sit after though , saves that back . :D
Nice hat by the way !..Part of the welsh decoy attire ?
 
#46 ·
Todd,

Agreed. It's generally accepted in UK that the only way for two people to share a hide safely is for only one of them to have a gun and do the shooting. All of my mates have their own set-ups, so we each make a hide separate from t'other guy for just the reasons you outline. In terms of tactics it's usually better to have two (or more) gunning positions anyway, to allow for different flight lines into, and exit points from, the decoy pattern.

Eug
 
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