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Derby training?

9K views 25 replies 18 participants last post by  Clint Watts 
#1 ·
I know derby's are usually doubles (Land & Water) but what are some other scenarios you've run into and glad you trained for while running a derby? I've got a 1.2 yr old Emmitt pup that is showing great strides in training daily but when we get to a test he gets so jacked its hard to harness all his energy. He's steady as a rock in training and will even honor in training but at a test there's times I feel like he might break (experience through a junior akc test, thankfully I could hold his collar). I train alone 99% of the time so I can't mimic that excitement level to really teach him to harness it.
We're following Lardy's program and doing force to pile now and he's doing an excellent job but excellent by my standards may be mediocre in a pro's mindset or training program.
I'd really like to see this dog excel and succeed but I've got limited resources and I work most weekends when training groups are getting together. I work 48 hr shifts and then I'm off for 3 days to train, so we do morning and evening sessions on the days I'm off.

What are some concepts and training that he should be 100% on before we enter our first derby?

Thanks for any info....

Zach T
 
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#5 ·
Kpolley, Thanks... our water training has been hit or miss with access issues. I know we're going to have issues with water because he loves to cheat! BAD! Entry issues aren't a problem but he loves to hit the closest possible land and run the bank back. He's fairly soft so I have a feeling I'm going to need an extra body with me on decheat and swim by training days.
 
#6 · (Edited)
You are not ready for derbies until he can do cheating marks as the memory mark of a double, without cheating and without correction. If you are on force to pile, you have a ways to go before he is ready for cheating marks. I quit trying to run derbies and just run Quals when the dog is ready. There is so much they have to learn it's very tough for those of us with family and day jobs to get a dog derby ready. Derby dogs need to be handling in training to learn how to deal with factors.
I believe there is more risk of making the dog trial wise, then you have a huge hole to dig out of. Keep training and run when he is ready, if it's not till he ages out, run a Qual. He will show how quickly he can be pushed in training.
Keep the big picture in perspective, a dog does not reach full potential till 4-6 years old. Look how many National winners are more mature dogs. Remember the long term goal, and strive for that no matter how long it takes.
I have more fun when I am not pushing a dog, relaxed and having fun makes my dog have more fun.

Just my 2 cents, worth what you paid for it-
 
#8 ·
You are not ready for derbies until he can do cheating marks as the memory mark of a double, without cheating and without correction. If you are on force to pile, you have a ways to go before he is ready for cheating marks. I quit trying to run derbies and just run Quals when the dog is ready. There is so much they have to learn it's very tough for those of us with family and day jobs to get a dog derby ready. Derby dogs need to be handling in training to learn how to deal with factors.
I believe there is more risk of making the dog trial wise, then you have a huge hole to dig out of. Keep training and run when he is ready, if it's not till he ages out, run a Qual. He will show how quickly he can be pushed in training.
Keep the big picture in perspective, a dog does not reach full potential till 4-6 years old. Look how many National winners are more mature dogs. Remember the long term goal, and strive for that no matter how long it takes.
I have more fun when I am not pushing a dog, relaxed and having fun makes my dog have more fun.

Just my 2 cents, worth what you paid for it-

I agree with Dr. Baxter's assessment. Derbies are extremely difficult to be competitive and many are a feat just to finish. 2 down the shore, out of context marks, hip pockets with a live flyer, super cheaty technical water marks (multiple re-entries), long punch-out doubles (a derby staple), and a stacked field of very talented competitors. Most professionally trained derby dogs (and many pros will be competing with you) have water forced/decheated the dog and are on technical marks, on average, by the time the pup is 10-12 months old. That gives them 4-6 months of solid technical mark training and scenarios before they usually line up for their first derby. Most derby dogs will compete from 14-16 months to their 2nd birthday.

Your dog must be water forced and decheated before you can even line up to a derby. It is unlikely that you will get through the basics you need before he ages out. I wouldn't sweat it, take your time, and focus on just making him the best dog he can be given your time and resources. If that means running qualifying stakes when he is ready, go for it.

If you are really interested in running FTs I strongly advise you to seek out a group of experienced amateurs or a FT pro to help you out. It is extremely difficult (almost impossible) to adequately train for FTs without the help of a group.

Most competitive FT people will train 6-7 days a week so finding a group that trains on the weekdays shouldn't be a problem.
 
#7 ·
Scenarios vary, but in the Southeast you'll see a LOT of concept tests set up. To be competitive, you need to be able to do a long retired gun tight to the back side of a flyer. The long guns won't be retired, but they are typically very difficult for the dog to see when seated and/or the terrain will cause the dog to lose sight of the long gun as they approach the flyer station. Being able to check down on a short memory bird after a long go bird in a tight set up would be something is work toward as well.

You'll also find that many judges will put your dog out for hunts, hooked guns (even if no hunt), or water cheats (even if no hunt). So, maybe two hooked guns, one hooked gun and a cheat, or two hunts after two series may get you dropped before the third.

So, able to do tight long retireds, check down after going long, honest on long water entries, and on the correct side of the gun more often than not should allow you to at least come home with a ribbon.
 
#18 ·
So, pretty much everything that 2 of the most knowledgeable and experienced people in FT's say a Derby should not be.......

Dennis Voigt and Judy Rasmussen published a very good article on how to judge Derbies in RFTN a while back. It should be required reading for Judges. When one reads that article, and then goes to the rule book for some study, it becomes apparent that the types of tests you have described should not be used to judge the Derby.

But why would anyone do that?-Paul
 
#9 ·
It may sound discouraging but you received some good advice. Derbies are fun but not so much if you put your training back. A dog with a predisposition to cheat and one that has poor line manners is frankly that last thing you want in a derby as it is likely only to have that behavior reinforced. A derby or two won't ruin the dog but if you look at the cost/benefit, there is little benefit.

Just keep training. Don't rush into derby. Run Qs when the dog is trained well enough--they are frankly a better entry into FTs for folks who work and train when they can. If you get the dog ready though and it is still under two, by all means give it a shot, but it is not ready yet and training just to run a derby is short sighted. Train for the long haul.

By the way, nice looking dog. The first one looks a lot like our Emmitt pup.
 
#10 ·
Thank you for all the solid advice everyone. I knew we weren't ready yet but didn't know how far out we actually were. After reading this we have A LOT of work ahead of us and that's plenty fine bc I truly enjoy working with this dog. My long term goal for him is to get him QAA, but some days that seems like a far stretch. If we never run a derby I'm fine with that since its not our long term goal but I definitely need to get affliated with more FT people considering I know VERY little about there setups and concepts compared to the HT world. The one good thing I truly like about this dog is he will run for miles on a straight line (min. factors though). I honestly feel like he could be a heck of a dog if he was on a pro's truck but I'd like to see just how far "I" can take him by myself with the help of a group or pro here and there.

Thanks again for all the input. I like to write stuff like this down to keep in my training bag for concepts that we need to work towards while we follow our program. Kind of hard to tell where your at in the game when you do everything by yourself and your new, So thanks again!
 
#11 ·
Even with how tuff it is to be competitive, I chose to run derbies with my latest before we even did swim-by (got behind in our training last fall due to whelping a litter of pups with another dog).

The first derby was not good. The next three she was judged out for hooked guns, hunts, and/or cheats, the 5th she got hung up in feather drift and needed help (prior days flyer fall was just deep of derby flyer), and then she got a jam in the 6th. I will say, she's very steady and really watches her birds.

She'd cheat, but I could tell it wasn't to avoid the water, but to get the bird. So I let her go. You simply can not throw a bird that she doesn't believe she can get. Doesn't always get them, but nothing intimidates her. So, I'm very pleased with her derby work, if not with her being judged out on a few.

If you've ever read about Ammo and her early derby career, Bill has said that sometimes she'd cheat, but nearly always knew where the birds were. Some judges, judged the mark, and she'd get called back, and others judged the line and she'd get dropped. They wanted to cultivate the go get em attitude so they just let her go. People said they'd ruin the dog by allowing her to cheat, but she turned out ok I think.

Anyway, we finally got back to training this spring and finished swim-by, cheating singles, and taught channel blinds and she is very watery.

My point is, go run your dog if you want to. It's fun, but it does take away from training time.

And whatever you do, when you start judging derbies, remember to be generous with your call backs. There is no need to judge a dog out in a small derby field. I've started calling back every dog that brings me 2 birds and doesn't have an eliminating fault (as long as we have time to run them).
 
#12 ·
I'm a true veteran of derbies ;) I've seen 3 and participated in 3. I loved them. Got to run against Dan hurst and his duo in 2 of 3. We didn't finish any of the 3, had a bad bird in the first once, got confused in the 3rd series once, and I picked her up in the 3rd once after she left on the judge calling dog and I brought her back and resent her and she decided she was going to cheat on the resend. It was fun to play and find out just where we were in training. (Not near good enough). Train hard and jump in and play. Big thing I found to work on was retired guns. Even though we never saw a true retired gun in all 3 there were gun stations that were not completely visible to the dog after the dog left the line. We are now working toward the q and hopefully the am by next spring. Dog would be awesome with a better trainer, but we're having fun learning. My next derby dog comes home from the dr next Tuesday to begin rehab and hopefully we'll be back training by September
 
#14 ·
Being a new comer myself I highly recommend running some derbies to get the experience for you and the dog, i have been taught and fully believe a dog needs to learn how to trial. In derbies you wont honor so you wont have to worry about that but obviously keep working on it. Do not be afraid to pick up the dog at a trial if hes not doing what you want or expect, keep those standards cuz in a trial ur only correction is him not getting a bird and hell learn he cant get away with stuff just cuz hes at a trial. Derbies are a lot of fun and a great stepping stone and people say that running them are bad and blah blah i disagree with, ull gain or lose as much from a derby as you want, ur in control of letting the dog have poor line matters or getting away with a cheat and so on n so on. Train hard n smart run a couple derbies and have fun its also a good way to meet some great people.
 
#15 ·
As always I like what Glen had to say. You are not ready now but you have some more time to solidify basics and start transition. If your dog is a good marking dog and steady go for it and run a couple derbies. They are really a blast to run. So far the numbers have been low in enteries, last week I judged a 13 dog derby and one of the goals was for every one to get at least a couple series in (hopefully) and not slaughter dogs in the first couple of series. Run a couple and have fun and see what you need to work on, marking concept wise.
 
#16 ·
FT's require two out of the following three basics; Money, Time, Knowledge. Without atleast two, you will never be competitive. Maximize your time with current dog to gain the knowledge with your future dogs and buy a lotto every week.;)
 
#17 ·
I just ran my first one last weekend. I trained like a mad man for her first 13 months then it got cold and froze up and I thought I needed to keep her in the water to be competitive this spring and next fall so I sent her to south Ga for 2.5 months. Got her back home and trained like a mad man again for 2 months. We went out on the very first go bird..... about an 80 yrd shot flyer. lol Funny thing was we ran almost the exact set up 2 times that week but the flyer was at about 200 yrds and memory would be around 275 or 300. Once she got past the flyer she saw the long gun (150yrds at most) and we were done. Had fun though and got to meet some new friends and saw some good young dogs. Saw Clooney run his last derby.....very nice dog and owners. Saw Johnny Armstrong's young dog Flex place again ( derby list before he was a year old) and several other fine dogs. We will be at Rocky Point next weekend to give it another try.
BTW that's a fine looking dog and best friend.
 
#21 ·
Here is a thread of 21 pages that I bookmarked.... some good "idealistic", as well as "realistic" derby information provided.

http://http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?95245-Judging-derby-marks

If you really want to run field trials, quit running Junior (or any hunt tests) right now, and train. Particularly true with a high dog.

I am in a similar situation as you. Two young kids, full time job, and train alone 95% of the time. If you can find the time, people and a Pro to work with, then great! But realistically, you should probably start searching for ways to train (alone) that allow you to close the gap as much as possible with those that train with a group and have more resources on a consistent basis.

You have to focus on making your dog fundamentally sound, and learn how to polish the fundamental skills needed to be competitive. There is a LOT of water work that can be done with you, your dog, and a single bumper. If you can teach these fundamental skills to perfection in your "training alone" time, then you can make the most of your opportunities to train with a group.
 
#24 ·
If you object to instilling some undesirable habits (creeping, breaking, shore running) then do not enter a Derby until you feel you have a good chance to win. Bad habits learned in competition can be difficult to duplicate and correct in training. Rather than focusing on training for the Derby focus on training a finished polished retriever, if in the course of that exercise your dog seems to be well enough trained to e competitive then run him if not so what, the Derby is over at 24 months and there is much to do for the next 8 years.
 
#25 ·
The local FT pro I was working with kind of had the same mindset and preached it to me, don't worry about derbies and train for QAA. I fully believe bad traits can be learned from tests and poor owners (new ones like myself not recognizing a problem when its happening). Running a derby isn't a priority of mine but getting my pup to a QAA standard is. Videos, forums, and books only explain so much.... that's where a training group or a local pro becomes a huge asset. I honestly feel like my dog was very sensitive and lazy up until he hit a year old, then the light bulbs started clicking.... I sent him to GA with the pro this winter and he came back doing 250+ yard triples like they were nothing. He gets lots of compliments on his marking and the lines he runs which is great but there is SOOOO much more to the game than running marks.

I ran the JH test bc several buddies were going and wanted to see my dog run, plus I wanted to see what kind of animal he turned into at a test or if he stayed focused and steady like in training. Well it definitely answered my question.... he becomes a wild work aholic at a test. Personally I don't think he's "mature" enough to run a derby, he's about as mature as my other lab when he was 6 months old. Only difference is this dog can flat out mark! He's just sensitive to train, meaning VERY little collar pressure. Its good in some scenarios and harder in others when you really need the collar or another human to be out there when the dog screws up. I definitely need to market myself more with local groups and go watch a few derbies and quals so that I can better prepare myself as a team member. I don't see the point in taking him just to "run" when I know he's not ready, cheats water, and hasn't done swim by. We've got a long journey and quite the task ahead of us being a blue collar team but I truly think he's got what it takes so I refuse to give up this early on anything.
Thanks again everyone. I get on RTF a lot but don't pose many questions since I'm new to the game but I truly enjoy everyone's help when its actually useful and not just garbage being spewed. Maybe by this fall or early next spring we can reevaluate our situation and go from there. I know QAA is obtainable but we've got to keep our head down and stay focused without creating new bad habits to fix and delay us anymore than we already are.
 
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