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Pattern Blind Question

4K views 22 replies 10 participants last post by  Sally Berry 
#1 ·
I have a 12 month old pup started on pattern blinds. I have finished teaching and running one field and I have started a second. I spent a day on each blind teaching the blind and then walked out and tossed one into the pile and ran it (each of the three) for a couple of days. Why do we have so much difficulty with the middle blind? It is so frustrating...flies out to the right or left blind without fail....line up for the longer middle blind and will run to the right or left one nearly every time!?!? Should I change the inflection of my voice when sending for the longer blind as a way to cue her? I'm careful to ensure she is looking at the right spot...when she does I say dead bird followed by back...takes a good line for 20-40 yards and then will bee line for the right or the left.

Which brings me to the second question...do you keep handling to get the middle blind or recall or just go up and re-teach the middle blind?

Thanks in advance!
 
#2 ·
I have a 12 month old pup started on pattern blinds. I have finished teaching and running one field and I have started a second. I spent a day on each blind teaching the blind and then walked out and tossed one into the pile and ran it (each of the three) for a couple of days. Why do we have so much difficulty with the middle blind? It is so frustrating...flies out to the right or left blind without fail....line up for the longer middle blind and will run to the right or left one nearly every time!?!? Should I change the inflection of my voice when sending for the longer blind as a way to cue her? I'm careful to ensure she is looking at the right spot...when she does I say dead bird followed by back...takes a good line for 20-40 yards and then will bee line for the right or the left.







Which brings me to the second question...do you keep handling to get the middle blind or recall or just go up and re-teach the middle blind?

Thanks in advance!
It is so frustrating because she is a dog.

Now what does your training program suggests or someone who is helping you? :)
BTW...Wish we knew your name....:)
 
#3 ·
Well...my name is Jamie Moss...not sure why that is important, but I'm proud of my daddy and aint ashamed of my name! That said...no one is helping me in particular. I do train with a pro on occasion, but I hate to bother him every day with my worries. The man runs dogs 12 hours a day...he needs a little time off at night! That said, I was a long time Smart Works fan and still am, but on the advice of the pro who helps me some, I recently purchased Lardy's TRT II and TRM and Dennis Voight's 25 Essential Drills DVD's. I just got back from vacation and while on this trip, I watched all of the videos in their entirety. I shouldn't have done that! There is a lot there and man was that info overload! I've trained and sold a lot of started dogs over the years but I never had any interest or experience with hunt tests or trials. I made a steady to shot started retriever who would mind well and retrieve your birds. I sold a lot of them and their owners were happy. A year ago I participated in my first hunt test and I was hooked, but I realized my own training program was limited in the area of blind retrieves. I went straight from TT to swim by to cold blinds on two pups last fall, but after training with the pro and more test experience, I felt like I was lacking there. I really liked the idea of teaching diversions on a pattern field so I purchased the Lardy DVD's...but literally...last week! I will review them again but I've found this forum to be a quick way to get a response. Lardy's dogs ran the pattern field in the DVD. I didn't get to see any dogs mess up. These are great videos but that is the problem I have with all the videos...a guy like myself can't watch one and become a pro trainer. They are great learning aides, but you learn to train by dealing with and working through problems...there aren't any videos on the market (that I have seen) that address many problems. It isn't their fault. It would be impossible to make such a comprehensive series. Every dog is different.

I ran two dogs on the pattern field this am. For the first time, one dog made a decision...I saw a head swing and he was about to go to the left blind...it happened quickly but I could see it unfold almost as if it were in slow motion. He checked himself and made the right decision and took the correct line and went on to the longer, middle blind for which he had been sent. The 12 month old still wants to go right or left. My main concern is theories as to why they do this. Lardy even mentions it in his video...that they have difficulty with the middle blind and finally, how to correct or what to do when they do it. Recall? Teach the blind again? Handle? What if you get cast refusals when you handle? Attrition? Those points, as I recall, were only skimmed, if mentioned at all, on the video.
 
#8 ·
do you run them in the same order everyday? like l,m,r ? if so maybe try and mix it up or maybe take out the right and left one for a couple days and just run that middle one. i know it may be boring and a waste of time to just run one pattern blinf but after a couple days bring the others back into the mix again. some may say just pick up and move location and pick 3 new spots. are they all the same difference? i am NO pro by any means.
 
#9 ·
I have tried mixing up the order, but it didn't seem to have an effect...positive or negative. I think Kwik offers the advice I'll try first...and yes, I agree with no collar until I am sure pup knows where to go.

BJ - OP honest in original post? What are you talking about? How can a question be dishonest?
 
#13 ·
A couple things.
Once off pattern blinds, Lardy does not come back to them, nor does he set up an entire second set.
Why are you continuing with pattern blinds?

Lardy recommends a very wide spread 3-legged pattern on a flat featureless field.
How tight and how featureless is your pattern?

The most likely reason the dog is having trouble with the middle leg, is the suction of the other two legs.

The first rule on recalling is you recall for a very poor initial line. When recalled, the dog should not take the same line when sent again. Because you are getting a good initial line, recall would not be the answer. The second rule on recalling is that you must condition the dog to being recalled because recalling crushes a dog's confidence. So until you've done wagon wheel lining and the no-no drill in transition, I would not recall even for a poor initial line. Just handle and simplify on the next send.

And don't forget that we run pattern blinds to teach lining to a known location, but the next step is blind drills, where we teach a line to a single blind, then add a distraction so that we can teach casting in the field. Just look at this as getting some casting work in ahead of schedule.

Last, the more times you watch TRT, the more you pick up on. If you haven't watched it beginning to end at least 50 times, watch it again. :)
 
#19 · (Edited)
captain,

thank you sir! The guy who helps me train said basically the same thing about the videos. He said he watches them every year in the spring even though he's done this full time for 8 years now!

That said...I am on the second field after I met and trained with a really nice guy who posts here on the forums. His experience is far greater than mine and after we spent a day training, it was obvious my first attempt at a pattern field was a hit and a miss: it was a flat and featureless field in that it was a long field that is on the school property where I work and is mowed weekly but it was too narrow...not enough angle room for the outside blinds so I had a lot of trouble with the middle blind (asking for a pup to hold too tight of a line for a 220 yard blind). So, I started the second field basically in my back yard. I can't get quite as much distance (middle blind is 174 yards), but it certainly is not featureless. It is a field I mow for hay. It was mowed about two weeks ago and Johnson grass is growing in patches and it is not flat...pretty severe fall from left to right so the dogs are asked to run "across" that grade. Thanks for the tip...I didn't catch that in the video and I have only watched it once. Dang! Back to the drawing board again?? I'll never get off these pattern blinds lol but the main thing is I just want to get it right.


Now for another of your points...I thought you teach the pattern field and then do the diversion work off that same field...are you saying after you do the pattern field, you move the blind...a single one and teach it then do diversions off of it? I thought he was saying teach and run the three pattern blinds until the dog knows them and will line them when sent...then have a bird boy throw a diversion from say 20 yards or so off the line of the right hand blind. Pick up mark and then run the blinds. Then throw the same mark but no off it and run the blinds before picking up the mark. Then move the bird boy to where the bird fell and throw the mark toward the line...no off the mark and pick up all three blinds then get the mark...then teach under the arc etc.

I really like lardys stuff so far. It makes sense but it is a ton for a convert to take in. That guy is sharp. Then I watched the voight video too...which left my brain as scrambled eggs! That's all the question was about...some clarification and like I said, I'll try and watch the Lardy video again ASAP and write down what he says but I remember him saying something about the middle blind and that dogs often have trouble with it.
 
#14 ·
BJ, you are out of line. Next, I agree with simplifying. Most dogs need positive experiences on blinds. Recalls and lots of correction just erodes confidence- something you don't want on blind retrieves. Train for confidence without repeating the same blind. Set up similar concepts, but don't repeat the exact same blind. I hope this helps. I am not an experienced pro, by any means.
 
#15 ·
BJ, you are out of line. Next, I agree with simplifying. Most dogs need positive experiences on blinds. Recalls and lots of correction just erodes confidence- something you don't want on blind retrieves. Train for confidence without repeating the same blind. Set up similar concepts, but don't repeat the exact same blind. I hope this helps. I am not an experienced pro, by any means.

I agree. :)
And no I am not out of line...
 
#20 ·
The first blind drill can be run on an outside leg of your pattern blind field. I use the outside leg that was taught first because it's the one that the dog has run most.

After you can pretty much line all three legs. Next time you go...

1. Run outside leg with no bird boy (BB) in field.
2. Place BB in field 1/2 way to blind and outside of line maybe 30 yards or so and run blind(no throw).
3. Throw mark (about 1/2 way -15 yards - toward the line to blind) and retrieve, then run blind.

Lardy says at this step you are not looking for tight lines behind gun. That comes later.

The reason for putting the gun out is to create suction to pull the dog off line to the blind and give you an opportunity to cast to a well known location.

The reason for throwing the mark is that the dog will begin to ignore just the bird boy and line the blind so you don't get to cast. So retrieving the mark increases the suction and most times creates a casting opportunity.

*if your dog is so compliant that he lines straight to the blind even with these distractions, then you could throw mark, run blind, then pick up the mark. If you get plenty of casting in without doing this, save it for later.

Now you go to 4 or 5 different locations, teach a single blind, add the BB, then the mark as above. Alter the position of the BB with each successive blind drill so the you have opportunities to cast both left and right.

With each successive blind drill, you will need to teach the blind less and less and by the 4th or 5th one you can run it cold if all is going well. If you teach the blind too well , you will not have opportunities to cast.

After this you come back to your pattern blind field and out a couple bird boys out there, one being between the middle and an outside leg. So you'll throw the outside mark, pick or up, run a blind, throw the inside mark, pick it up, run the other two blinds.

Later, after you've run a lot of simple cold blinds, you can come back to the pattern blind field and teach the more complex blind concepts like poison birds, tight behind guns, through old falls, etc.

*Make sure you throw the marks toward the line on those first blind drills so that you are casting away from the bird and not away from the gun.

Lastly, I've run pattern blinds on less than ideal grounds. The thing you have to understand is that it's gonna be more difficult for the dog, so will require more teaching & simplifying (and patience) on your part. I'd likely stay where you are and teach that center leg (if it allows room to come back and add the diversions later) rather than starting over. But you know what you're up against with your current location, so moving again may be best.

Edit: this is from memory. I'd watch that DVD again to make sure I haven't left out a key bit of info.
 
#22 ·
I would just like to ad a few things to what BJ said for clairity
Let it be, let it be ,speaking words of wisdom let it be, . Trust your dog and he'll trust you. The relationship you have with your dog is priceless,don't take advantage of him, let it be let it be. Just my 2 cents.
 
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