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Frozen storage/surgical breeding

6K views 31 replies 17 participants last post by  swliszka 
#1 ·
So after posting a thread about chocolate factored FC or AFC studs, and narrowing it down to a few, I would like to know who is the best at storing frozen semen, doing progesterone testing, and surgical implants in the Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin area, as well as Texas area around Houston.
Trying to speed up the learning curve by posting the question, as I am not to familiar with the process of using frozen semen, and want to get it right the first time, as it is expensive to go this route.
Any feedback on the process, and who to use would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 ·
Houston Mary Tatum for sure and no one mentioned FC Howdy and she has semen there. I'm sure many will say Inver Heights for Minnesota and good prices and success. I use Veterinary Village in Lomira, WI with success, surgical and now with TCI.
 
#3 ·
Marty Greer, DVM Lomira, WI. Has never missed for me.
 
#9 ·
There are significant negatives for both the owner of the stud and owner of the bitch. With the very best outcome expect no more than a 75% conception rate but often far less. For the stud owner to get the best semen quality the dog should be only worked lightly and not bred for a week or two prior to collection. Collecting, freezing, and storing is not cheap and the return (the stud fee) is dependent on luck and the skill of a third party. For the bitch owner the expense and the uncertainty of a successful pregnancy are impediments. I encourage bitch owners to do progesterone testing and seek natural breeding for optimal success.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the details, EdA.
A few of the stud dogs I am interested are no longer around, so frozen would be the only option.
Just want to do it right, and use the people that are the best at this in order to put the odds in my favor for success.
Looking for someone in the Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin area , or in Houston area when I am down south in the winter training.
 
#11 ·
I have had 100% for dogs that have used semen from my 2 stud dogs with an average of 10.5 puppies. Granted I haven't had 100's of breedings but with good timing and a vet that knows what's going on it isn't that big of a deal. I will not ship semen to a vet that doesn't specialize if reproduction, that is where your average drops dramatically. Collecting and freezing for my stud dogs hasn't been a issue at all. We typically get 5-7 breeding units per collection and that is straight of the pro's truck in the summer when my dogs are north. We will be collecting in Georgia this winter too. It is important to collect the semen from young stud dogs when possible. Seems more and more stud dogs are going sterile.

Storage is cheap if you ask me $95 a year per dog reguardless of breeding units. My storage facility is also very easy to work with and can ship the same day as the shipment is requested most of the time. I know other facilities can be a pain to work with but the ones we use are very easy to work with.
 
#18 ·
Dr. Becky Malphus in Thomasville, Ga. Dr. Anna Adams near Atlanta, Ga.
 
#15 · (Edited)
If you decide to do frozen and this is your girls first litter, if you haven't mapped her cycle before. You'll want to be sure to have the semen shipped to your chosen vet well prior to her coming into season. You'll also want to see if you can get the written report on the semen from the vet that did the freezing; that way you get an idea of what your purchasing, prior to unthawing it. If it's highly limited semen, the breeder might want proof that your girl can produce, frozen needs a certain expertise timing is critical, even if you know your girl can produce. Still with some stud fees, even after you've purchased the frozen; It's sometimes better to wait until after a girl is proven. For some breedings you only get one chance, now if the stud is still producing it's not that big of an issue, to try a frozen breeding on a maiden bitch, as you can always get more later.
 
#16 ·
The last two litters I've produced were from frozen semen. The first was with semen that was 15 years old, with, shall we say less, then optimal motility. I got 5 pups from that litter. The bitch was proven, and had two healthy litters prior.

The second litter was from a maiden bitch, semen 20 years old. Six pups.

What I've learned from this is, the timing needs to be exquisitely accurate. There is only a 6-12 hour window when the semen is most fertile.

The DVM that I used is very experienced doing surgical AIs.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Hunt'EmUp
Good advise.
This would be her first little.
So, I am gathering that I would be better off to do a natural , or AI for the first breeding, to see if she is proven. As I am not a breeder, but a competitor, I am not interested in doing a lot of litters, but that may be necessary.
From what I gather, I need to do progesterone testing to get the timing right, have the frozen semen on hand, and find a fertility expert in my area with a proven track record to get the odds in my favor. Sounds simple enough:)
Thanks for the tip about getting a report of the quality of the semen. Had not thought of that.
 
#21 · (Edited)
We all get pretty excited about the "perfect" match up for our girls. Often some of those "deceased" big timer studs, pull a lot of our attention, as they have proven track records, and the pedigrees are known to match. However experience has taught me that oftentimes, high preforming females are not the easiest to breed. Their cycles are usually skewed, several I know of only come into season every 1.5 yrs. others have very short cycles and are ready to breed after only a couple of days; timing is critical. Add this to the fact that most girls with high titles, are older in age. Then we think about usually having to use frozen; from limited stock, on a maiden bitch. Seems to be stacking the deck against getting a bunch of pups or any out of a superior girl. If it were me I'd go for natural from a younger stud, who has a lot of availability, and is known to produce large litters. Natural usually give you 2-3 ties, the semen live longer, the timing window is broader. This type of stud will also have a certain # of pups guarantee, or a rebreeding-refund in the stud contract. A well known big time deceased stud will be a one time shot, for a stud fee, usually regardless of outcome. Stack the odds in favor of getting some pups, on the ground out of your girl, so you know she can have some. Then attempt the big time, "perfect" breeding later.
 
#22 ·
In Houston, both Drs. Mary Tatum & Kit Kampschmit at Brittmoore Animal Hospital are fantastic and pretty sure there's a chance that they may have one of your chosen boys swimmers in storage. We have used both doctors with great success. I've personally used Kampschmit twice and Tatum once. All three breedings were very nice to say the least.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Can anyone point me to studies analyzing conception rates in maiden vs "proven" bitches? I have not been able to find any studies, but I haven't looked real hard either.

I have heard the same stories reported for women, but there are many studies on women that say otherwise. Parturition is pretty traumatic and can lead to sterility, plus aging, infectious disease and other variables can all reduce the likelihood of conception as the bitch ages. Waiting to do a breeding to the dream stud has its risks as well simply because the older bitch is likely to be less fecund.

Anyone in these parts wanting to do a natural breeding to an FC probably has to ship their bitch at least 600 miles (edit: there's few a few hundred miles closer now that I think of it). If I were to breed my bitch, I'm thinking it will cost me a lot one way or another...either shipping/driving my dog somewhere or getting semen shipped.
 
#24 ·
Don't have the citations for you, but some anecdotal comments.

There might be a difference, I think, between breeding a 2 yr old bitch and an 8 yr old bitch; but there might not be such a big difference between breeding a 2 yr old and a 3- or 4-yr old bitch.

Maybe Dr. Ed can add to this, but I've read (or been told?) that it's a good idea to breed once earlier to take advantage of the flexibility of the pelvic area for whelping purposes ... that this will "stretch" that area before the bone becomes less flexible ... sorta sounds reasonable, but don't know if that's really true.

I did one "maiden" breeding of a girl just before she turned 5. 12 live puppies.

FWIW, Seeing Eye does their health screening at around 18 mos. Then they breed their bitches 3X back-to-back. Then spay. In this way, the young bitches can still go on to become guide dogs after contributing to the breeding colony.

Have to agree that shipping semen is a lot easier than shipping a bitch :) The nice thing about frozen semen is that you can get the semen in-house in advance. Chilled semen shipping can run into problems if it needs to be shipped over a weekend.
 
#25 ·
I would also do a guarded swab culture as soon as she went in heat if doing a surgical in case there was an infection. I had a 4 year old bitch "miss" twice after having a litter as a two year old. Had a culture done, high strep culture, antibiotics and bred, produced 8 puppies live cover, so "young" bitches can have "issues", too.

With some of the issues I hear of people having trouble GETTING a bitch pregnant, I would want to make sure the bitch gets pregnant "easily" using a reasonable cross and live cover and to learn her progesterone pattern somewhat before the "real run" and what can be really expensive with all the precise progesterone (and possibly LH) tests, plus the surgery, and possibly stud fee expense of a frozen (and the "loss" of "good" straw if she wasn't able to conceive anyway).

Just some my thoughts in addition to what has been mentioned above.
 
#29 ·
I have 2 frozen TCI litters on the ground, 3 this year 8, 7, 10 pups but all had big litters naturally. Dr Zella did my unbelievable 10 pups with TCi done on day 10 with her first progesterone of 36 on day 10. I just asked Dr Greer on the stats for maiden bitches with TCI and they are compiling the data but she said "Hi we are doing very well with canulating the cervix on maiden bitches - we are able to do so on nearly every one. We are tabulating the data on successes in excel". There are breeds that are hard to cannulate but not Labs.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Like the OP I do not breed very often, basically when I am ready for another pup and the female has proven to be "worthy" of being bred. That means more to me than just health clearances, she has to meet my performance standards. That said, I have had 3 frozen semen breeding done by surgical implantations. First one was my first field breeding to big name dog. But he was collected when he was older and had problems with using frozen semen. Prostate disease in older males can interfere with the ability to freeze the semen and be potent. There are now newer treatments that can help with that. Also I used a vet fairly close that had studied under one of the masters. No pups, next heat I drove the dog to the stud and got a nice litter. That was that female's only litter. I do not believe in breeding just to prove the female can be bred.
Second breeding different bitch, daughter of the first one. Bred with good timing and procedure done by one of the nationally known repro vets. Poor quality semen, got 2 pups. That was her first breeding, and had 2 more litters naturally with 11 and 6 puppies.

Third frozen breeding, from the last litter of dog #2. Her first breeding tried naturally, had a vaginal band and the stud owner's vet did a side by side, no pregnancy. Decided to try the same stud but was not willing to make the 14 hour one way drive again. Decided to go frozen. I asked for the semen report BEFORE I agreed to have it shipped. Dog was collected when he was 7 but was now 9. Spoke with the collecting vet (well known) and we agreed we would rather have frozen semen from a 7 yr old, then fresh from a 9 yr old. I work closely with a repro Dr in Cleveland and we induced her heat, followed it closely, her progesterone #s were classic, surgery on the correct day and 7 pups.

What I learned from all of this was that proper timing is paramount, but semen quality is just as important. Just because it is stored does not mean it is good quality. Get the semen report from the day it was collected. Spend the $$ and get the right vet to do it, I had to take a day off work to drive to Cleveland and get the procedure done. If I do another one I might consider TCI.

When everything falls into line I think it can be pretty successful, but it must be very detailed and done perfectly. I am fortunate that I can do all my own blood collections and the local human hospital does them for $18 each, I can even hand carry one in on a Sunday and the results are on my fax by the time I get home. Send them to Idexx and the cost is $55 each, ridiculous in my opinion. It is a very serious undertaking and expensive. We all want to think our dog will produce a great dog, but in reality I hope for a significant improvement in my line of dogs. But I have thought about forgetting about all that and spend the $$ on one of those very special and rare breeding. Hard part is getting to know the people who have those litters because you know they are not advertized.

In other words, you need to be ALL IN, or don't do it.
 
#31 · (Edited)
There are clinics out there that one can not trust the analysis results from and is very risky to buy semen stored and frozen by them. For example I got frozen shipped in with an analysis of 75% post thaw motility and they rated progressive motility 3/4. Two breeding's - Dr Ken Law analyzed it - four separate slides for each straw and had a second opinion on each - progressive motility was 30% on one straw and 5 % on the other. I of course have the original analysis in writing as well as Dr. Laws analysis. It was shipped just from Kentucky to Abilene,KS - container arrived with correct temperature - so no mishaps en route.

That is not only bad for the buyer of semen, but like in this case the stud dog was long gone and the owner was convinced she had quality frozen stored. Now long after the dog has passed she finds out the clinics analysis was incorrect to say the least. Semen was stored at clinic of collection and was from two separate freezing processes/collections.

The clinic personnel I do reach just gets aggressive when I mention it, the Vet that froze the semen still has not even called me back after 3 months. Just like I am making it up. I am sure Dr. Ken Laws reputation is among the best in the industry and for him to put this in writing refuting the analysis of another clinic is for me very impressive. No possible gain for him, he could just have done like most others and kept his comments verbal and made up some excuse for not standing behind what he knows is right. So even though the experience as a whole was a negative one, at least I found out that Dr Ken Law not only does excellent work (which is common knowledge), but is someone very rare that actually has a spine and stand up for what is correct.
 
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