Hip and Eye Clearances Required on all retriever pups

[ducksoup]

Chris,
As usual RTF sets the standard just a little bit higher -- great to see

[hhlabradors]

Elanor,

I've gotten several PM's from folks with respectfully delivered suggestions and/or requests. I would not say that your approach is a waste of time. I will say that the others' approaches have been more effective and motivating for me personally.

Please and Thank You regards,

Chris

Chris,

I'm not asking for a favor. I'm not asking you to do anything that benefits me personally. I'm expressing surprise and disappointment that an action that is supposed to promote more responsible breeding of dogs doesn't include a very important point: one that could be included with no additional effort or cost.

I appreciate you having this board in the first place and have thanked you for it. If I asked you to look up a pedigree or answer a training question, or anything else that would be a favor to me, I'd "use my magic words." To have to say please or thank you or provide positive motivation in order to participate in this discussion? Well, it's not a game I feel a need to play. Makes no difference to me, as I know what clearances I look for regardless of the litter posting policy.

I think you've spent too much time with the little kids regards,
Eleanor

[twall]

Having had a "well" bred lab with bad elbows I am biased towards including them. Yes, all the clearances get expensive. But, this forum is for performance dogs and the expectations are that pups bought through here will be physically sound to do what we want. I don't know that elbow clearances would have done anyhting for my pup.

As far as other breeds clearances are just as important. Chris isn't going to be as aware of the particulars per breed. Maybe several breeders/owners of each breed could put together a list for Chris.

Having bred all of one litter of chessies I would like to see OFA/PennHip for hips, CERF and PRA as a beging. Too bad there isn't a dna test for temperment!!

Buyers also need to know that these tests help improve the odds of a physically sound puppy. Just as titles help improve the odds of a good working dog. It sounds like Ken has a good relationship with a great breeder. The dog world could use more like them.

Tom

[Chris Atkinson]

Elanor,

I've gotten several PM's from folks with respectfully delivered suggestions and/or requests. I would not say that your approach is a waste of time. I will say that the others' approaches have been more effective and motivating for me personally.

Please and Thank You regards,

Chris

Chris,

I'm not asking for a favor. I'm not asking you to do anything that benefits me personally. I'm expressing surprise and disappointment that an action that is supposed to promote more responsible breeding of dogs doesn't include a very important point: one that could be included with no additional effort or cost.

I appreciate you having this board in the first place and have thanked you for it. If I asked you to look up a pedigree or answer a training question, or anything else that would be a favor to me, I'd "use my magic words." To have to say please or thank you or provide positive motivation in order to participate in this discussion? Well, it's not a game I feel a need to play. Makes no difference to me, as I know what clearances I look for regardless of the litter posting policy.

I think you've spent too much time with the little kids regards,
Eleanor

Thank you Eleanor,

I'm not sure if you mean that I have to spend too much time with people using the board like little kids, or that I spend too much time with my own children. If it's the latter, sadly it's quite the opposite.

Having been in sales and marketing for all of my professional career, I've found that motivating people and team-mates is best accomplished by treating all with consideration.

To all, thanks for your comments around the new classified requirements.

Chris

[LH]

Why just Labs? CHD, PRA & PRD affect other breeds as well.

Hey Bob,

Here are my answers.

I've been swamped, as most all of us have been, with job, family, hobby etc. I wanted to do something in a fairly quick timeframe, that addressed the most pressing need. I chose the labrador litters because unlike goldens and chessies, there are many litters of labradors posted daily. There are not nearly as many golden and chessie litters posted on the RTF classifieds. As a result, it makes it easier for the interested market to sort through who's offering what.

I chose to implement the policy where it would have the most impact, the quickest. I personally believe that we should have eye and hip clearnances as a requirement for all registered retriever breeds. If the golden folks, chessie folks, etc. come to me and help me understand that this is the standard for their breeds, we'll probably adopt a similar policy for them.

The goal is not to fund the "cottage industry" that surely some will feel exists with one of the health clearance registries. The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.

Just like the change of the boards from "bumpable/repliable" to not; this is the easiest and clearest way to get away from those abusing the system.

I've gotten PM requests from a few to require health clerances on Goldens...now Bob appears to state that we need it for the chessies too. (I had intended to call my buddy Ken Bora to discuss this on the Chessie front...for some reason, I was of the impression that the Chessie crew may do things a bit differently...probably a false impression.)

Chris

Hi Chris!

From what I have seen through my searches on Offa most FT Chesapeake breeders do all health screens on their dogs. Unfortunately for some reason they do most often not advertise their litters on RTF. Do not know why. The consequence of this is that people looking for optimal Chessies may not find them.

If You want to You could in some way insert these 2 Chessie specific forums where many ads are placed and where links to breeders can be found:


http://www.chesapeakesunlimited.com/

http://www.teamchesapeake.com/

[Judy Chute]

Because I believe that elbow dysplasia is more crippling than hip dysplasia, and that elbow clearances are part of the bare minimum package.

I have to agree with the importance of elbow clearance ..these days. Since it is an issue with Goldens...and I hear with Labs, too.

Having hips done..why not do the elbows at the same time...

Just my thoughts..

Judy

[Vicky Trainor]

The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.


Chris

YES, dogs need to have thier eyes cleared. But ONE # does NOT say the eyes are good 5 years later. There are breeders that do NOT send in the paperwork, but DO test their dogs EVERY year, and supply copies of all the clearance papers to puppy buyers. I have to ask what is better, 1 # or 5-6 sheets showing the dog tested clear every year?
just wondering aloud.

If you read the original post and the Sticky on the Classifieds-Lab puppies forum, you'll see that a CERF # was not mentioned in the announcement. Chris mandated that "clearances" must be posted.

In response to PMs/email I have received from posters in the Classifieds-Lab puppies forum, I have explained that many breeders/owners do not send in the OFA form completed by the board certified opthamologist for a CERF #. As long as the breeder has that completed form, the "requirement" has been met.

On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police". Potential buyers need to do their OWN homework before purchasing a pup/dog/item.

Vicky

[Miriam Wade]

Vicky Traynor wrote:

On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police

I have noticed that Chris is no longer signing off as "The Janitor". C'mon Chris, I'm sure there's some floor that needs mopping somewhere!

M

[Judy Chute]

On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police". Potential buyers need to do their OWN homework before purchasing a pup/dog/item.

Absolutely...love the website.. However, ..since the subject has come up..some good discussion might raise some heads among breeders to do just a little more for the welfare of the dogs and future generations..

...and that buyers of pups be aware of elbows among all the other health concerns. ..to be able to make the best possible decision given the information to be had on a particular pup/litter. Knowledge certainly is not a bad thing.. and if the news is not the best and a person buys pup anyway..at least they have the information and be able to deal with it for the pup's best interest. If a particular clearance (like elbows) is not there..perhaps the pup owner will go ahead and do clearance(s) for his pup as it grows up.. let breeder know results, too, in their best interest...and thus improving knowledge for all.

.. this discussion might encourage more clearances to be shown on RTF puppy ads..even though not "required" by the RTF. ..but that breeders are taking the extra step on their own ...elbows, as an example..it seems..are becoming a real issue.

Good that the RTF is available to discuss this important subject..

[badbullgator]

Chris thanks for trying to improve the quality of the board. You effort is appreciated.
I think a good reason for not requiring elbows is that not enough people test for it. In the history of the evaluations only 37,700 labs have had x-ray submitted (about 300,000 registered with AKC each year). With GR the number is 1673, yes only one thousand-six hundred-seventy three Golden’s have ever had elbows evaluated. CBR’s? Even worse, a grand total of 40 CBR’s have ever been evaluated for elbow dysplasia! The percentage of both labs and GR’s that are affected with ED (not erectile dysfunction) is about 11%. I am not saying that it is not a good or necessary evaluation, just that it is not commonly done and the numbers prove it. A total of 37,700 elbow evaluations in labs since 1974! 33 years of evaluations and 37,700 labs! About 1,100 evaluations a year. Not much and yet the affected population remains around 12%. My point is some people just do not feel it is necessary and others do. You should always shop for the dog that feels best for you. If you feel that the dog you want should have CMN, eyes, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, and patellar luxation evaluation then that is what you should look for. I think Chris just wanted to set some standard to keep questionable litters form being posted here. I think what he has required meets the minimum standard and is a great idea. It is like shopping for a car. Front airbags are required, if you want side airbags you have to shop for them. Same here. If you are happy with eyes and hips then there are more litters to chose from. If not you will have less litters but I am sure you will be able to find them. I think the idea was to set a minimum standard, NOT to establish THE END ALL BEAT ALL breeding requirements.