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Dog Bite....weird situation

16K views 73 replies 32 participants last post by  ErinsEdge 
#1 ·
1. We are already in contact with a vet and a behaviorist after this happened, so are mainly wondering if this has happened to anyone before, and if so, how it all panned out with your dogs later on.

The other night, our very nice neighbor lady returned at twilight from turkey hunting. She was wearing full camo and carried her turkey into the house and then came back outside to get the rest of her gear. Our chessie has never hunted and has never been exposed to live or dead birds. Our dog knows her and she has loved on him and petted him in the past.

Our dog had just been retrieving in the yard and was near our house. We walked to the edge of our property where our neighbors car was parked in her driveway and started chatting with her as we walked. Our dog came from behind us and ran up to our neighbor. Bad manners, and I was getting ready to apologize and correct him, but honestly thought he was going up to be petted. He will sometimes sneak away or run up to my sister or family friends when he wants to be loved on by them. There was no growling...no sound whatsoever.

He got up to her legs, and started growling and snapping and went up on his hind legs enough to bite her forearm. Once he had growled, it was a bit of chaos, but it involved my hubby yelling at him and he didn't continue snapping and growling...it was enough for him to be verbally corrected, and he was kenneled in the house immediately.

Neighbor lady went to the hospital for a couple of stitches and my hubby went to the hospital to meet her and her husband with copies of our dogs shot records and apologize profusely.

I immediately called his breeder and asked for advice. She said that the situation didn't sound like normal aggression, because he's not aggressive with people normally. He doesn't even guard his food. She suggested a trip to the vet due to a possible health issue, like an inner ear problem she'd seen before, or something else, and neutering him as soon as possible as well as keeping him on leash or cable at all times.

He does have an ear infection which we didn't know about 2 days ago. We haven't met with the behaviorist yet, but through contact with her, she wondered if perhaps he could've been overwhelmed by the bird smells and instinct kicked in as he hasn't been exposed to any of that. Just conjecture at this point though.

We have waffled in the last 2 days between immediately rehoming him to a hunter in the country or something like that by asking his breeder for help, or sticking it out and keeping him on leash at all times and observing the situation for awhile to try to assess what's going on...perhaps the ear infection messed up his depth perception and ability to figure out who our neighbor was?

Has anyone ever heard of this before? It's weird and out of character, and a bit stressful too. Can an ear infection mess up a dog that badly?
 
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#43 ·
Chessiemom, I'm not a professional, and have only had chessies for 6 years, but it sounds like your current situation isn't particularly suitable for a Chesapeake anyway. Even if you owned a saint of a dog, people are going to be wary because of the breed (in the same way that they are wary of pit bulls) and blame things on the dog. A big corner lot home with lots of kids and neighbors coming and going, with a dog off leash and most like not carefully supervised: it's a recipe for disaster with many dogs. I also think that the average person has no idea of the kind of control a good dog handler can exert over a dog, thus making them able to be handled under stimulating circumstances. In my opinion, given your explanation of what your house and yard are like and the situation with the neighbor, the fact that you weren't able to control the dog and stop him in his tracks means that you don't have sufficient control to allow him to be off lead. You may well find that you'll be required to keep him in a secure kennel when he isn't leashed and/or muzzled. You have to do what you have to do, but it's a much different life for him that what you had envisioned. You've learned a hard and very dangerous lesson here. In order to protect yourself from future repercussions, you'll need to find a good professional for some help. If you do have to rehome him and the breeder doesn't want him back, be prepared to work hard finding a suitable person who can handle this dog... you're going to feel terrible if he ends up biting again. I don't envy you in this situation, although I do sympathize. You are very lucky you aren't being prosecuted over this.
 
#44 ·
I didn't read every reply and forgive me if someone already covered this, but this is out of character for that dog, what happens if the next time it's one of your children? I wouldn't take a chance of that happening, one thing biting your neighbors arm but what if he bites your child's face? if your bent on keeping him at the very least have him defanged. your children's safety is much more important than any dog. I'm sure you agree, when I was younger I saw my buddy get bit in the face by there family dog, the boy was scared for life, mentally and physically.
 
#46 · (Edited)
You have gotten a lot of uneducated opinions on this matter.
The facts is your dog is probably capable of having a high standard of some simple obedience commands. Also you are probably capable of learning how to be consistent with management practice. it just depends how bad you want this to happen. Its hard work at first but after a while it becomes just "what you do" like anything else in life.
Just because a dog bites a stranger has no relationship with biting a house hold member. There are dogs that are only dog aggressive,there are dogs that are only handler aggressive,there are dogs that are only aggressive to the outside pack members and there are those who share a combination of those if not all 3.
You gave very little back round on your dog so there is no way anyone can give some type of advice on it. My experience is most people miss the signals and give a skewed interpretation of what is going on anyway.
To me your dog is pretty simple according to what you wrote.
Fool me once shame on you ,,,,fool me twice shame on me.
This now should never happen again,,,
My question now is
Are you a dog person,,do you have the ability to either train or maintain the training done with the dog. And do you have the capability to change your habits and learn to read your dog.
You'll need to do this to give the dog a long healthy life. And yes you can still enjoy him,,,actually you will enjoy being with him way more if you reach that point.
The 2 easiest types of aggression for people to deal with are dog on dog and dog on outside pack members,,so your doing just fine

Pete

PS
You said when the dog growled ciaos ensued, I 'll bet you that's what incited the bite
That's the worse thing to do next to a dog thats growling,,Growling should have given you time to diffuse the situation instead of escalating it.
 
#58 ·
PS
You said when the dog growled ciaos ensued, I 'll bet you that's what incited the bite
That's the worse thing to do next to a dog thats growling,,Growling should have given you time to diffuse the situation instead of escalating it.
As its been said you have a lot of experience with aggression in dogs, so perhaps you have more insight?

I'll give you a more detailed account of what I meant by chaos in case it will be helpful. I was trying not to be too wordy in my earlier posts. Our dog was off leash, but wearing his e-collar. We had just exercised him and he'd run a bunch of retrieves. As we were going up to the house to go inside with him, we noticed our neighbor was outside wearing her camo having just come back from turkey hunting. We said Hi and started chit chatting about the turkey she just shot (and had just put in her house) while walking towards her. Our dog knows her and she loves on him, so its not unusual for us to be outside with the dog off leash nearby. As my hubby and I were walking towards her, our chessie ran past us towards our neighbor. I remember thinking that he was misbehaving by running off without permission, and I was going to apologize for his poor manners. He has done this in the past with a few of our guests, mainly because they invite him to. My brother in law for instance is awesome, but kind of calls the dog and riles him up and pets him all over.

Anyway, when our dog got next to our neighbors legs, he growled, snapped, and snarled up on his hind legs and bit her arm. That's what I meant by chaos. His attack was chaotic and unexpected. He was running up all happy (or so it seemed) and then changed when he got to her. My neighbor screamed. My husband yelled at the dog and grabbed his collar and kenneled him inside while my neighbor (who is a tough girl and a hunter too) was pretty scared and jumped in the open hatch of her Suv to hide.

The attack lasted milliseconds it seemed. And we didn't see it coming at all.
 
#47 ·
ChessieMom

Sharon Potter has suggested that many people don't really understand dog behavior and that leads to problems. And Pete has given some good insight on dog aggression.

An obedience and behavior modification person would probably recommend training desired behaviors that relate to non family members entering your property. This would probably go something like this: start with just a regularly dressed person entering your property---male, then female, then a person dressed in camo, then a person in camo with packages, person with different hats, then camo with scent, etc. And this would be a long term project.

My own obedience teacher identified what made his border collie skittish and has worked on this since he was a pup. I believe the dog must be 3 or 4 right now. It is an ongoing project.

I would recommend you read CULTURE CLASH by Jean Donaldson. An excellent book. She has a chapter devoted to socialization, fear and aggression. She offers an excellent analysis of the Bite-Threshold Model.

As for my own dogs I have trained them to sit when someone enters the house, I move forward to greet the person, if the dogs are good they can get petted. Also, the people are told how to approach the dogs so as to not heighten their excitement. In this way there are no surprises, everyone knows how to behave and nobody gets surprised. Dogs have ritualized behavior. I am training in them a ritualized behavior for this situation. I feel I am just adding to their list of behaviors that their mother and littermates taught them.
 
#49 ·
Thank you Tide Pond. But I wish I knew dogs better. Still have problems reading them. If I could read them better I would have an FC/AFC. But learn more everyday about dogs when I train. Just wish people would not have such a negative feeling towards chessies. They are so soft compared to labs.
 
#52 ·
Yes Linda has great chessie and if I had a fraction of the knowledge she has about chessie/dogs I would be doing pretty good in field trials.
 
#56 · (Edited)
I hope you'll find this to be valuable advice - since you said you're in touch with local "chessie" people...

Forget his breed. It doesn't matter. The dog is what the dog is. I have seen everything from labs to goldens to pitbulls to any kind of mix you want get put into a situation where their natural inclination was to bite.

It is said that aggression always follows fear... I'm not sure that's true as dogs would hunt if they were left to their own devices. That said, reading between the lines it sounds like you recognize that your dog (I don't care if he's a cockdoodledoodog) is somewhat nervous and fearful of the world.

That's the dog that bites people regardless the color of his skin.

You need someone skilled in dog behavior and aggression, not someone who happens to have had a few Chessies. You have a breeder that has no idea what in the heck she's talking about - again regardless of breed. God only knows whom else you've run into that claim to be "chessie experts".

A dog is a dog... Yes, you can tell something about their behavior based on what they might have been bred for but each and every one, regardless of breed, is an individual and must be treated as such by their owner/trainer/handler.

Get yourself some good professional help. Someone who has helped some aggressive dogs in the past. Don't be afraid to travel or spend money either. Get the best person you can logistically and financially afford.

Read post #45 or #46 from "Pete" over and over. He's handled more aggression cases than anyone on this thread, myself included.

If you're close to Idaho... I know a guy (Pete).

Oh and if your "behaviorist" is a 25 year old girl with a psych degree, get a new one. You want someone with enough white hair to tell you they have more than a minute of experience.
 
#60 ·
Mistake # 1: Rather than planning on apologizing for his misbehavior, immediately recall him to heel before he gets more than a few steps in front of you. You said he's taken off like this in the past....and it doesn't matter who he running to, it's YOUR dog, you are in charge and need to be in control. He clearly doesn't see it that way. ;)

I'm looking forward to hearing more from Pete. :)
 
#61 ·
Mistake # 1: Rather than planning on apologizing for his misbehavior, immediately recall him to heel before he gets more than a few steps in front of you. You said he's taken off like this in the past....and it doesn't matter who he running to, it's YOUR dog, you are in charge and need to be in control. He clearly doesn't see it that way. ;)

I'm looking forward to hearing more from Pete. :)


I like Pete, he's from Idaho the Chessie capitol of the West.
 
#62 · (Edited)
I think Sharron ,Tobias and others are probably correct about the growl. Its common for dogs to growl at unfamiliar objects and scents quite often but most usually back off,, but I seriously doubt she would have to get rid of this dog. There should be a high rate of success if you have a good trainer/teacher .. Outside the pack aggression" isn't that tough to deal with.

chessie mom
I wasn't talking about the incident or what led up to it,,I got the jist from your original post. I was talking about the history of the dog,how does he look (posture and movement)in public places or in close proximity to stranger,house hold members,strange animals ,familiar animals, Is he concerned or unconcerned ,totally ignore animals or people,,being a pest,, in some of these different environments. The way a dog looks as it moves through these different environments and situations gives a little insight about the animal itself and gives indications of personality type and how it may react in a certain type of situation.
That's sort of what I was looking for. Does she look around a lot especially if your going for a walk even in a known area ,,if so how does he look around. There are a ton of questions.
Before I asked you if you were a dog person(someone who understands dogs on a fairly deep level) because if your not it would be very difficult to recognize these things and label. them as you were looking at the dog moving through these environments.



A lot of people overlook this stuff or just don't recognize it. but its very important to know when your dealing with aggression. They are indicators

Think about that,,if it made sense to you,
There are alot of different ways now to deal with aggression, but management is always part of the solution,,and a very high standard of the control commands are usually all that is needed for outside pack aggression.
Personality can't be changed without a frontal lobodomy or some kind of trama to the brain but you can channel a dogs behavior and manage it successfully.
You know the old saying "dogs are easy to train but people aren't" Thats because the person has to know every thing the dog just has to respond to a stimulous of some kind
Pete
 
#67 ·
Normally after one bite you are considered on notice that you dog is predisposed to that behavior, and you are strictly liable for any further biting. But, as Thomas said, check with local counsel to be sure of the law in your jurisdiction.
 
#68 ·
There are no free bites. Liable for all bites. Plus age of child could determine liability or strict liability.
 
#72 ·
I am with you Pete this thread should come to an end.
 
#74 ·
This is the real reality. I have had my Homeowners insurance cancelled 3X, even with another company's liability insurance, and I have never had a dog related claim. Insurance companies hate to hear "dogs" because of the cost of dog bites, and they just look at multiple dogs as increased dog bite liability for them. I tried to explain that owners of trained multiple dogs are very careful, and it's the one dog owner that is causing most of their problems. They don't care. The last cancellation was because I didn't have a separate kennel building to house all the dogs because they were in the house and not in a kennel run in the house. The rest of us that feel that an unprovoced bite is not tolerated are paying for those that make excuses and endanger those around them in the neighborhood.
 
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