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Drills to Work on to make dog focus on blind

14K views 83 replies 27 participants last post by  DarrinGreene 
#1 ·
when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait more than one second he might start glancing off to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?
 
#2 ·
Your friends are No, Here, Heel, Good, Sit and pinch collar w/ short tab (for gentle tugs).
Some drills are wagon wheel with birdboy throws added to No off of to another target and shortish mark thrown with blind on backside of gun.
And other drills where you have an obvious attraction /distraction you can use to then work on getting dog to look elsewhere. Use soft voice No/Here and Good when they look towards correct spot. Wait them out and repeate No/here when they look elsewhere. Once they are looking where you want some add in Good Right There or reinforcing Sit command that clues dog they are looking where you want.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Teach the dog that the "good" cue means "you're looking where I want - keep looking there".

Here's how:

1. Have the dog sit
2. Place a ball, bumper, partially full food bowl or treat 8 - 10 feet away
3. When the dog stares at the object, say "good" and immediately release

Keep repeating this process at short distance for 100 repetitions with immediate release.

After 100 reps - begin to slowly extend the time between the "good" cue and the release.

Now put a prong and tab on the dog and do the same exercise...

When the dog looks away, say "no" and tug the prong.

When they look back at the object say "good" and release.

Works both sides of this equation until the dog will stare for 1 full minute (time it, it feels like forever).

Now go out to the field and use this routine, first on marks then with white bumpers on short grass.

Use a single object at first and then add additional stations spaced well apart.

Teach the dog the language of "good" and "no" deliberately instead of just depending on your field exercises to handle it for you.

Focus on the skill you need apart from your program and it will improve drastically.

This helps with all head swinging, marks and blinds.

Adapted from teaching a bomb dog to stare at a source. Works great with little pups but no reason it won't with adult dogs. Every bomb dog I've seen trained to do this was an adult when it was done.
 
#5 ·
Great advice!! If you do what he said ^^^^^ you will have this problem fixed in no time. Remember, the dog is learning. Use something that it knows and wants like food or thrown toy and utilize it. I love when RTF users actually give advice rather than bicker amongst themselves over verbage or context.
 
#8 ·
Darrin, do you use a cue word to get the dog to look at the object? Or since its high value they immediately look and you don't need one? My thought here would be that we use 'dead' to look out straight as in for a blind. In obedience they use this target training for go outs for example.

Probably don't need it, but I'm always curious.
 
#15 ·
I teach my dog "look" for go-outs and I click and reward this behavior as a foundation exercise.

I put food out on a target, close-by, say "look" and when the dog looks I click and feed in position. So, I use my right hand and bring the food to the dog while he is looking, I don't click and then feed the dog while he is looking at me.

Then, I say look again, the dog goes back to looking and I release to the food on the lid.

It has helped tremendously for field work, especially since I did this for a year training for go-outs before ever trying it in the field! It is a pretty solid behavior.
 
#10 ·
c.j., Do you mind if I ask if your dog takes good initial lines? I know with my dog, I always stopped and handled but I've learned that eventually I have to include stopping and recalling for a poor initial line for him to learn to go straight when he wants to do otherwise. If he knows to go straight I figure he will stop looking for alternatives to going straight. I started on the pattern blind field doing the pattern blind under the arc of the old fall. Instead of stopping and handling like on blind drills, I stopped and recalled. I know I am a genius for coming up with that, ha, ha. I actually didn't read that part anywhere. Maybe your dog is different and he already takes a good line and is just head swinging or something else.
 
#11 · (Edited)
This is a microcosm what's "missing" when teaching a dog to line.

"repeating this process at a short distance for 100 repetitions"

then seamlessly moving to the next small step (of many) in the process.

You don't start consistently hitting "three point shots" unless the shorter distances become automatic.

In addition, when training a young dog there are other skills that must be developed at the same time. Too much focus/work
in one area soon results in "out of balance" issues. And an "out of balance" dog is not a lot of fun.

Most training issues are created by too often satisfying trainer needs and not the dog's. Too many are in too much of a hurry.
This often leads to a status of "You can't get there from here". Being patient and precise is not a common "dogma" when there
is the ever tempting desire to do more exciting "stuff".

The link below is a video of a seven bumper lining drill....WE still have a lot of precision to develop. The "we" part of that
perspective is not going to suddenly become very different without doing many more "reps" and critically focusing on OUR
weaknesses. And there is a lot more work to do in other areas.

note: The drill in the video is NOT a fix for the OP's issues. It is an example of just one lining drill that required many, many
incrementally easier "reps"
(and we are not finished with it). I am an old "dog" working a new program. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGltguazJwA

note: Videos are a very useful training tool (if you are looking to improve skill levels).
 
#17 ·
Some great advice in this thread. And most all come down to taking TIME to teach the dog how to focus. I have been guilty of wanting to roll off the t field and pattern blinds and have the dog run all age blinds. It just doesn't happen like that. I was given the advice years ago that by the 1000th cold blind you might start getting the consistent lock, initial line and drive so strive to get to that point.
 
#21 ·
when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait more than one second he might start glancing off to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?
For a dog to lock in on a destination they have to have a target ...there are many different ways to teach this concept ..Just like marking, the dog has to have a destination ( target ) in their mind when they leave the line ...He has no clue where you want him to go so he starts to hunt ( look ) for it...give him a target ...your choice of what that may be ..some use poles,flags,buckets,big white bumpers,ect...I teach this concept in the wagon wheel with one ring and then add a second and a third for fine lining...
 
#26 ·
YES!
After they master wagon wheel, I teach lining to new targets..round hay bales or camo umbrellas or tree stumps
..lining past these instead of right at them.
Unlike pattern blinds, each send is to a new location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEixrahr0M

I also like to do walk-around blinds, with no obvious targets, but working on the same cues.
Unlike pattern blinds, each send is to a new location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fjGMxB4HN8

.--Skeeter
 
#25 ·
Maybe you are just plain futzing around trying to line him and that is why he is no-going. Just kick him off and handle to build positive momentum. I bet he is just not ready for long cold blinds. Do a ton of pattern blinds so he loosens up. It seems running him in HRC has been done before he is solid on long blinds.
 
#28 ·
Here is how I start with a 3-month old pup, but I think it would work for older labs as well.
https://youtu.be/21xcDOO9fTY
This drill teaches pup to focus on destination targets, and we start working on cues such as "good" when locked into correct target,
gradually working on push/pull lining with each feeding.

It also is the beginning of conditioning heeling without a leash.

With most lab pups, food is the ultimate motivator and they advance to finer push/pull in a couple weeks of daily feedings.
 
#30 ·
The OP's question was what drills work for getting a dog to lock on to the direction of a cold blind. However, if one were to question what is
required for running "good" blinds the critical component is teamwork and communication which require responsiveness and focus. A drill in
itself will not develop those factors. Providing and describing a drill does not always include the relationship between the handler and retriever.

For example, before transition a young dog should be "involved" repeatedly with the handler in "sending" on marks. Lining and a verbal "good"
concepts should be well entrenched. The foundation for teamwork is introduced. The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon
wheels should build on the handler/dog communication skills. Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to make
it seamless.

Looking for a drill to fix "the not being seamless process" is inefficient at best and usually frustrating because it does not confront the real issues.
Responsiveness and focus require communication (verbal and physical teamwork). When things fall apart....."the bridge too far" is encountered.
The question is why is my dog not listening to me? Inserting a mechanical drill will generally not improve communication.

So where does one start the remediation? That would be a difficult question not knowing the dog or trainer. Keep in mind it is usually not the dog.
Which means the question then becomes "What do I do differently in terms of communication with my dog?" A two week drill will not cure
this issue.
 
#31 ·
The OP's question was what drills work for getting a dog to lock on to the direction of a cold blind. However, if one were to question what is
required for running "good" blinds the critical component is teamwork and communication which require responsiveness and focus. A drill in
itself will not develop those factors. Providing and describing a drill does not always include the relationship between the handler and retriever.

For example, before transition a young dog should be "involved" repeatedly with the handler in "sending" on marks. Lining and a verbal "good"
concepts should be well entrenched. The foundation for teamwork is introduced. The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon
wheels should build on the handler/dog communication skills.
Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to make
it seamless.

Looking for a drill to fix "the not being seamless process" is inefficient at best and usually frustrating because it does not confront the real issues.
Responsiveness and focus require communication (verbal and physical teamwork). When things fall apart....."the bridge too far" is encountered.
The question is why is my dog not listening to me? Inserting a mechanical drill will generally not improve communication.

So where does one start the remediation? That would be a difficult question not knowing the dog or trainer. Keep in mind it is usually not the dog.
Which means the question then becomes "What do I do differently in terms of communication with my dog?" A two week drill will not cure
this issue.

In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long..Steve S
 
#32 · (Edited)
In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long

I agree with you Steve......However, the key word in "The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon wheels should BUILD on the
handler/dog communication skills.
Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to build "seamless". Unfortunately,
arriving at transition with a weak foundation in communication skills is a tough impedance to break though. Dog needs to be ready.....many are not.

Therefore, if someone "waits too long" a drill is not going to be the answer.
 
#33 ·
In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long

I agree with you Steve......However, the key word in "The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon wheels should BUILD on the
handler/dog communication skills.
Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to build "seamless". Unfortunately,
arriving at transition with a weak foundation in communication skills is a tough impedance to break though. Dog needs to be ready.....many are not.

Therefore, if someone "waits too long" a drill is not going to be the answer.



The drill is still the answer...They have just gotten the cart before the horse so to speak....They need to go back ( meaning stop moving forward with their plans ) and fill in the gap necessary to bring the dog up to the place they are at now...
"Transition means gradual " ..I see transition as moving the dog farther down the road...We are taking the dog and the knowledge they have acquired doing basics and we are now going to apply those skills in the field...In this process we are going to start combining all the drills into actual work situations...If during this process you find the skill necessary to do a certain job( say stop on a whistle ) you may have to go back to a more controlled set up to bring the dog into compliance before you move on to blinds in real training set ups...You are correct in the statement that a lot of dogs are not ready to move on because they don't have the skill level necessary ...80% is not enough to make the dog successful in some transition situations.. Lack of skill is what makes for problems... Steve S
 
#34 ·
Lots of good advice but I am lazy, Chinese drill with live Bantams or hooded ducks planted on 5 or 6 blinds, don't fiddle, when he looks more or less correct send him. Also as stated by others lining wagon where is helpful.
 
#41 ·
Simply put, dogs don’t focus on a blind. They focus on their handler, and the handler is supposed to be focused on the dog. That way, when the dog looks in the direction he is being directed to, the handler can send the dog with the proper timing. If the handler misses the moment the dog will think he has the wrong spot and start scanning for the right one.
The wagon wheel an exercise used to communicate to the dog that he is being aimed at a specific target/destination. You can also run single marks off multiple guns to tempt the dog to look away from the gun he is being directed to. This gives you the opportunity to correct the dog for looking away from the “line”.
I like to run sight blinds using flags. You can set them up as tight as you want to challenge the dog’s understanding of holding the focus and holding the line after he is sent. Putting a gun off to the side tempts the dog to look away, giving me the opportunity to refocus him.
This is always done with visible targets
The bottom line is this. If the dog does not believe/trust you then he will not take a line with confidence.
That trust must be earned.
Think about how long it takes for you to have absolute faith in anything or anybody. Now think about how long it takes to lose that faith.
All the drills and exercises you use to teach your dog to run blind retrieves should be designed to build the dog’s confidence and faith in you.
Never set something up to see if the dog can do it. Set it up to teach him how to do it.
 
#42 ·
Simply put, dogs don’t focus on a blind. They focus on their handler, and the handler is supposed to be focused on the dog. That way, when the dog looks in the direction he is being directed to, the handler can send the dog with the proper timing. If the handler misses the moment the dog will think he has the wrong spot and start scanning for the right one.
The wagon wheel an exercise used to communicate to the dog that he is being aimed at a specific target/destination. You can also run single marks off multiple guns to tempt the dog to look away from the gun he is being directed to. This gives you the opportunity to correct the dog for looking away from the “line”.
I like to run sight blinds using flags. You can set them up as tight as you want to challenge the dog’s understanding of holding the focus and holding the line after he is sent. Putting a gun off to the side tempts the dog to look away, giving me the opportunity to refocus him.
This is always done with visible targets
The bottom line is this. If the dog does not believe/trust you then he will not take a line with confidence.
That trust must be earned.
Think about how long it takes for you to have absolute faith in anything or anybody. Now think about how long it takes to lose that faith.
All the drills and exercises you use to teach your dog to run blind retrieves should be designed to build the dog’s confidence and faith in you.
Never set something up to see if the dog can do it. Set it up to teach him how to do it.
It appears to me your statements are contradictory...why use flags..? This is always done with visible targets... In the wagon wheel you state that the use of a target or destination ...Not trying to pick a fight ...I just want you rethink your first statement...I agree that most handlers don't recognize when a dog is looking in the proper place...This is the problem with a dog that is not holding the focus for a longer period of time ...The length of time has to be increased as the dog goes through the process...I am not a proponent of fast cast or sends...When the dog will sit and look straight ahead for a count of 5 I am pretty sure they understand the go straight ( initial line) concept...Some will tap a dog with a stick ( don't ask how hard ) to refocus the dog when they look off ...A way of just getting the dog to sit straight and not move its head... Steve S
 
#46 ·
What about "single point blinds"? There might be another name for it but it's basically running a blind from multiple destinations but to the same point. Excuse my ignorance as I am a complete newb but this would be similar to pattern blinds but instead of multiple known locations sent to from the same line you send to the same location from a different starting point.

Hillmann spoke briefly about it at a seminar. It teaches the dog confidence but depending on the land you have to work with you can work on a lot of different factors by running to the same point from a different location.
 
#47 ·
This drill will help build confidence in the going on blinds...Even though tht starting point changes the destination remains the same thus creating a known target to run to....Steve S
 
#48 ·
Thank you everyone for the help on this. Yesterday I did a half wagon wheel drill with white poles. I also ran some pattern blinds to see if that would help.

I lined him up and said dead bird and when he would look in the direction I wanted give him a "good right there" if he looked away a quick "no". I sat there on each run for 15-30seconds until he closed his mouth and locked in on where he was going. When he is panting he almost looks up to the sky and that is not what I need. I really thinking waiting longer to send him is the solution on this especially because he ran all of them flawless. I usually give them around 5 seconds to somewhat lock in but I guess with this dog it is going to take longer. By the end of the day yesterday he figured out that he doesn't get released until he is looking out and focused, not panting and looking all over. I am going to start running pole blinds with varying distance and pattern blinds a lot more.
 
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