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Drills to Work on to make dog focus on blind

14K views 83 replies 27 participants last post by  DarrinGreene 
#1 ·
when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait more than one second he might start glancing off to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?
 
#53 ·
I want to buy a bunch of hay bales and go to multiple places and set up cold blinds all with hay bale jumps. The logistics and labor involved is holding me back, and I'm working on something else right now. That is kinda like a target, but the target is not the end of the blind?
 
#59 ·
I just started re-reading Jack Gwaltney's book. And in the beginning he discusses the difference of using targets to teach blinds, vs not using and how that relates to teaching the dog how to run blinds. I find it very interesting how he discusses it and make total sense. I am more in Ed's camp, get them running long and hard then we will fine tuning the lining. Communication should have been built all along the way thru yard work and marks. Be consistent and the dog will know what to expect. But nothing works without the dog's confidence.

A tip about running hay bale jumps. Take some fiberglass tent poles and attach a foot-18 inches of blind material and use that for jumps. MUCH easier to carry, so you want to run the same concept in different areas, that way you are not hauling hay bales around. Also use log jumps, harsh cover changes, etc, whatever the field offers. You want to generalize the concept, not just teach the dog to go over your jumps when he/she sees them.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Thanks, I'm going to look into making the jumps and take a look at that book again. Now that I think about it, I may go with the plastic culvert pipes or why not both. How long do you make your jumps? I was shown how to do it with a short length of culvert pipe about 7 feet, but I made my one hay bale jump longer when I was doing the no no drill. I had it five hay bales long.
 
#61 · (Edited)
Dogs get good at running blinds,by running blinds...... LOTS of them.... Its critical for the handler to develop a routine of placing the dog next to him whether it be a Marking set up, or a blind ,that teaches GO as sent,,then stay very consistent with that routine by communication..

If you do not have the dog lined up right before you send him,, whos fault is that,, and what are you communicating? How can the dog focus under confusing signals?

Develop a routine.. Consistently adhere to it, and run LOTS of blinds.... LOTS!!!

P.S. The above means NOTHING if the dog hasn't been well schooled in obedience, FF, T , and TT. So,, I guess THRERE'S the drills..
 
#63 ·
This thread has presented a consistent theme that strongly suggests that in the process of reaching the somewhat elusive goal of having a proficient blind
running retriever that it is NOT which approach (drills) the trainer uses (as in the topic of this thread) but rather how the trainer develops the communication
skills to do so.

Over the past many years there are a few areas of my training that have consistently exposed trainer issues. However, blinds has not been one of them. Let’s
see…..by comparing Dobbs, Graham, Lardy, Farmer and Hillmann (to name a few) one can see a rather “diverse” set of opinions, sequences, basic drills and
tactics used to teach a retriever to run blinds. They all have one thing in common.......skill development is based on fair, consistent, precise communication.

Success involves much more than which drill(s) to use (or the dog). Using some magical drill (or getting a better dog) is avoiding the real issue.
 
#65 · (Edited)
"I don't think you had success getting your dog ready for the derby following the Hillmann derby dog program? It's no big deal or important for
that matter. My point is that success is relative."


First of all, why would getting a dog ready for a derby have anything to do with running blinds? Secondly, I am fairly sure your first statement is
not a question. And lastly, stating "that success is relative" means what? The use of a trite phrase that is widely accepted as true is not
often convincing in a discussion.....when the point is pointless.

DL, I am not trying to be critical........but your post is typical.......then again maybe I am.
 
#67 · (Edited)
DL, I will take just a moment to point out that your somewhat snide (maybe that is not the best descriptor) remark that mentioning Hillmann’s
approach as it relates to Pounce's training was somehow a rationale (by you) for mentioning that Pounce did not run a single Derby is naively
absurd.

She was a June 4th pup. I live in the extreme of northern Illinois. We would have two winters (10 months of cold water, snow, ice) plus duck
hunting that would be in conflict. It would be rather ignorant to assume that trying to run a Derby (or two) before aging out against other young
dogs coming up north after training in the south all winter…..or two winters (with pros) was a good idea.

If you had left the Hillmann reference out, I would have not even bothered to re-engage.

Regards, Jim

"If you see my post as typical, I assume you see it as not special."

DL, you are always "special".
 
#69 · (Edited)
When I first began training dogs (13 years ago) - I followed the instructions of my mentors, not knowing exactly why things worked the way they did - just that they worked...

When I decided to train pet dogs I endeavored to learn as much as I could about the "why" behind the "how and what".

As I went through that process I was lucky enough to be exposed to 20 or 30 trainers from many different venues, not the least of which were some of the best (unsung) retriever people in the country. I lived dogs for those 24 months almost exclusively, between work, my personal dog and time spent studying various sources. Those guys never knew that instead of watching TV at night I was studying training technique.

During that time of total immersion, I learned more than I ever could from a book. I also learned that most dog trainers (even really great ones) hadn't read the book or... they didn't care to talk about training in those terms. Most people relate better to past experiences and hands on learning.

Nothing trumps (haha I said Trump) experience - no doubt about that. Putting your hands on dog is the only way to get good. Knowing the underpinning psychology helps a lot though, especially with things like blinds. You don't need to get into too much detail but before anyone ever touches Merten's or Hillman - they really should take the time to study:

1) Classic conditioning (Pavlov)
2) Behavior shaping using a marker (clicker, voice, doesn't matter)
3) Operant conditioning (the four quadrants of learning)
4) Temple Grandin's books (My Life in Pictures is important)

If you put that base of knowledge underneath the magical "programs", "processes" and "drills" you will have a much better chance of developing clean, clear communication with your dog. Knowing how habits are taught and habituated (in all organisms) should be Dog 100.

Just an idea to ponder.

I think a lot of our more senior and accomplished members understand those four things I mentioned, not necessarily because they studied them but because they "just know". That could be talent or years of experience but they know these things without ever reading the book. For the newer folks (myself included) reading the book helps accelerate the curve.
 
#70 ·
Darrin, I must start by saying I'm NOT saying your full of *%# cuz it might sound that way;-).
Just like dogs, people are different and learn different. Personally your study methods would be darn near a total waste of time for me. I hate books and reading.
There was a thread awhile back discussing that some people just have "IT". I believe that to be very true in what ever you do and especially in dog training. No matter what you do if you are not suited for your profession no amount of studying or book learning is going to make you good at that profession, might help but... Why would it be that someone like Lardy who is a college educated man and was a biologist for fish and game I believe, ended up being a dog trainer? I think he could have saved a lot of time and money and just started being a dog trainer right off the bat. Some of you on here that have kids that read this might want to hide this post;-).
I also will say that I think I look at things a lot different than most people so this is just another idea to ponder. If I had started this at a young age things would be totally different for me now. I didn't start this stuff until I was well into my 40's. I read one book, the Tri Tronics book written by Jim Dobbs. I learned the methods to teach dogs how to do certain things and then the dogs and experience taught me the rest. Had no mentors, watched no videos and read no other books. Now I aint no Mike Lardy or Danny Farmer but I could only wonder what might have been if I had started in dogs as a teen or in my 20's instead of mid 40's. Didn't start training full time until 58 and now at 61 I'm getting too old and tired to attempt to be like Mike. I feel like I pretty much wasted 30 years. Your post just got me to thinking and I disagree that you need to study 4 areas you mentioned before you pick up on Hillman or any other ways of training. For me your recommended study areas might as well be written in Chinese for all the good I would get out of them.
Don't mean to be a @$$ hole but to me your way of going about things would be over analyzing and would confuse me. Even in day to day training I try not to get too much into analyzing things. Sometimes you will never figure out why a dog does what he does so it is just better to move on and figure out what to do to keep him from doing it.
Well I have rambled on way too much but I think it would be interesting to know just how much book learning some of the big time trainers did on the subject of dog training
 
#71 ·
Someone can read all the books they want, but to be a successful trainer of field competition dogs, you have to understand each one you train, respect their innate qualities, and switch gears instantly between them. Many field trainers can't do that because they really don't have that special quality to be a student of dog behavior and know what really works. I believe Mike said something paraphrasing about being not being interested in quadrants, but he knew what works.
 
#73 · (Edited)
That applies to all dogs in all venues including the home Nancy. It's not just field dogs or competition dogs. If I work 5 dogs today I have to work 5 different strategies to get what I want. Throw an owner into that equation with their individual learning style and emotional limitations, and you have a really complex puzzle to figure out. Being successful with large numbers of dog/household/owner situations isn't at all easy. It take a lot of patience and thought. A good field pro faces this also, as he/she tries to educate their handlers on reading their dog, handling appropriately and how to perform maintenance training while the dog is at home.

For me personally - a solid understanding of the underpinning psychology has helped me sort out what I'm really seeing, from the perspective of someone who has trained maybe 1,500 dogs vs. 15,000 as some of my colleagues have. When I started coaching people I had maybe 150 dogs under my belt. I needed that additional knowledge to problem solve on the spot for my clients.

I think that knowledge base would help some of the folks who have trained 1 - 2 or even a few dozen dogs also. It's hard to interpret what someone like Mike or Pat (Burns) is asking you to do if you don't get get the underlying reasons. At least it is for me. Maybe it isn't so much for others.

I'm lucky to be connected to some top trainers in my area for obedience, agility and problem solving in the home. We often talk about the "over educated" kids coming our of ABC or some other program (sit means sit or off leash) frying dogs with an e-collar to get what they want, screwing up dogs left and right because they don't have the chops gained by experience. Totally feel your point here, believe me.
 
#74 ·
I'm talking about trainers who actually believe dogs can think and problem solve in advanced situations, not that the trainer teaches all. Some of these dogs are smarter than the trainers
 
#75 · (Edited)
One way or another - the trainer teaches the dog what's good and bad - end of story. Whether that entails leaving them to figure something out on their own or helping them is irrelevant.

The dog could be Einstein and they wouldn't be able to watch a field trial and go do it without their trainer.

They're very much like humans in that they remember the emotional reaction that had to a situation and then either seek or avoid that situation.

Take you Nancy - I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.

Good training!
 
#76 ·
Take you Nancy - I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.
It was many times more than once, since you are counting, and about adult competing dogs. You do not give dogs credit for having innate intelligence.
 
#77 · (Edited)
You've chosen to take my advocacy for a thoughtful, structured approach to training a dog to mean I think they're stupid, many times over. Your interpretation is incorrect. It's really that simple.

I don't succeed with 300 families a year because of haphazard, unstructured training that assumes "they'll figure **** out".
 
#79 ·

Originally Posted by DarrinGreene
I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.

Good training!



Now where is that Like Button when you need it . :wink:

Thats interesting.

I view it differently. Darrin has a chance to show the market that he is a patient and tolerant pro. He has the chance to let the unruly student air its flaws, while he calmly and intelligently sorts it out.

I think he missed the mark and showed a loss of control.​
 
#80 ·

Originally Posted by DarrinGreene
I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.

Good training!



Now where is that Like Button when you need it . :wink:

Thats interesting.

I view it differently. Darrin has a chance to show the market that he is a patient and tolerant pro. He has the chance to let the unruly student air its flaws, while he calmly and intelligently sorts it out.

I think he missed the mark and showed a loss of control.​
You are entitled to your opinion Sir' .
He/You or I don't have a requirement to show this forum. :D
 
#81 · (Edited)
My only objective/wish is that despite the occasional disagreement from certain parties - some of the newer folk will stop, think, plan, execute and learn to continually adjust their training to get the most out of themselves and their dogs.

As with any big group 98 out of 100 may take no value out of what someone says while the remaining 2 get something they will cherish forever.

To invest the time talking to the 100 one must believe the 2 exist otherwise, why bother.

I could do a better job at ignoring certain folks around here that I have no real reason to please, no doubt about that.

I've made some great friends here who are good folk and excellent trainers. I could quit now and I'd have gained more than I've lost.
 
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