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View Poll Results: Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

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Thread: Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Default Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

    Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

    I have been following the threads about training on setup and training off test grounds/on test grounds very closely. Here is my own scenario. It is true. I did it. It happened a few years ago, not saying when.
    I was working a test as the general lugger of everything and moving from stake to stake, scampering mightily, as I always do. Many RTFers who see me in action can attest to this, the pickup is everywhere all weekend.
    A person from out of state who is a familiar face at my clubs tests was running a dog/dogs in junior, that is AKC JUNIOR not any high publicity SRS or all important Open at a field trial. A simple AKC junior. The test, land series was set up with a few of the clubs Canada Goose decoys off to the side of the line, not a lot, less than a dozen. The handler was very concerned about this because the dog had never seen a goose decoy. From the clutter in my truck I handed the handler a holding blind and two goose decoys. I directed the handler "around the block" to a field I personally had farmer permission to use for training. Now around the block in Addison is a wase but still in faint earshot of the excitement of the test. The handler worked dogs with the holding blind and decoys the rest of the morning and ran first after lunch. The dog was perfect running past the decoys at the test. As I recall the dog failed anyway. But not because of the decoys. Because it could not mark a Sirloin in a Supper dish. But that is nether hear nor there. The question is about me.
    Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  2. #2
    Senior Member Andy Symons's Avatar
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    In those circumstances Ken, I think you did a great thing. We all started someplace and more than once I went "oh sh!t", she's never seen that before.
    "Perfection is the enemy of good enough" Vince Stone
    GRHRCH UH Slammers Bullet From Nowhere MH**

  3. #3
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    My personal opinion... Since this is not a competitive event where winners are chosen in head-to-head competition, I wouldn't be offended by it. If it were a FT or SRS, I'd be ticked off...
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

  4. #4
    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    I voted no if it is in junior with a novice. Many show up and have just thrown bumpers. Like you said they usually fail because they need to learn what to train on. In junior I think this happens. Some dogs have never seen a duck, a decoy, a silloutte, a blind.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  5. #5
    Senior Member Brevard Arndt's Avatar
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    Naw. You may get toasted a bit, that's all. All of us started somewhere sometime. How many times have you seen a handler ask the marshall for a bird at the JH stake and go behind the trucks and get a dog to pick it up, since the dog had not seen many birds in training. And the marshall goes and gets one off the rack and gives it to the handler with words such as; "I want the bird back, and try to stay out of sight when you use it."

    Unethical Not in my book. Helping a newbie get the "bug" Awriiiiiight!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Ken, your probably going to hell. No idea if has anything to do with this. Might have something to do with not sending me syrup or something. This might actually bring up a good question on ethics.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  7. #7
    Senior Member Georgia.Belle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brevard Arndt
    Naw. You may get toasted a bit, that's all. All of us started somewhere sometime. How many times have you seen a handler ask the marshall for a bird at the JH stake and go behind the trucks and get a dog to pick it up, since the dog had not seen many birds in training. And the marshall goes and gets one off the rack and gives it to the handler with words such as; "I want the bird back, and try to stay out of sight when you use it."

    Unethical Not in my book. Helping a newbie get the "bug" Awriiiiiight!


    Isn't that the way it is suppose to work. I know that some of those that have trained several dogs skip the Junior but there are those who need it.(myself included) Hopefully the end of next month.

    I doubt you are going to Hell Ken. Look at it this way, if just 1 or 2 of those handlers in the Junior start to become serious in their training you may get some help next year and not have to scramble around as much.

  8. #8
    Senior Member msdaisey's Avatar
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    No way!

    We should help NICE newbies as much as we can.

    I am sure that quite a few of us are going to hell, but it doesn't have anything to do with that incident. 8)

    Sondra
    What you get out of it is what you put into it, then a fat lady sings.
    Marc Broussard

  9. #9
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    Don't see anything wrong with what you did......only right.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Goldenboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora
    Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

    I have been following the threads about training on setup and training off test grounds/on test grounds very closely. Here is my own scenario. It is true. I did it. It happened a few years ago, not saying when.
    I was working a test as the general lugger of everything and moving from stake to stake, scampering mightily, as I always do. Many RTFers who see me in action can attest to this, the pickup is everywhere all weekend.
    A person from out of state who is a familiar face at my clubs tests was running a dog/dogs in junior, that is AKC JUNIOR not any high publicity SRS or all important Open at a field trial. A simple AKC junior. The test, land series was set up with a few of the clubs Canada Goose decoys off to the side of the line, not a lot, less than a dozen. The handler was very concerned about this because the dog had never seen a goose decoy. From the clutter in my truck I handed the handler a holding blind and two goose decoys. I directed the handler "around the block" to a field I personally had farmer permission to use for training. Now around the block in Addison is a wase but still in faint earshot of the excitement of the test. The handler worked dogs with the holding blind and decoys the rest of the morning and ran first after lunch. The dog was perfect running past the decoys at the test. As I recall the dog failed anyway. But not because of the decoys. Because it could not mark a Sirloin in a Supper dish. But that is nether hear nor there. The question is about me.
    Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?
    And Ken, if I remember correctly, wasn't that handler a still wet-behind-the-ears young man by the name of Mike Lardy? Imagine if it wasn't for your momentary lapse of "ethics" where would he, or the thousands of trainers he has gone on to assist, be today?

    Every time Ken Bora unloads his truck, an angel gets his wings. Or something like that.
    Mark

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