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Goldens & Chessies 2016 National

12K views 51 replies 33 participants last post by  dorkweed 
#1 ·
NONE QUALIFIED.

Bloodlines or lack of diligence??

Bill Connor
 
#3 ·
I'd be interested to know how the presence (knowledge) of DM in chessies has affected the field dogs. When I had Hitch, it was just coming to light and was a big deal. I felt then that the field lines would suffer as a result of folks wanting clear only dogs.
 
#4 ·
the average career of a FT lab competing in AA events is probably 5 years or less..just look at the notable names of perennial Qualifiers that are absent, either because they lost dogs due to illness or age..also look at how many NRC qualifiers are also qualified for the 2017 NARC, shows what a difficult time the Amateur handler/owner has going against the likes of Farmer,Arthur,Sletten,Remien,Sargenti and countless other name pros on a weekly basis in the Open
 
#5 ·
If you want to play from year to year you need numbers on the ground. Many of those who support one or the other of the breeds mentioned
have a lab as a fall back dog. In our part of the country Eloise was the champion of Chesapeake's, when she left the scene no one took up that
task.

I think it goes a step further, in the old days people had a healthy mixture of dog breeds, some turned out, some didn't, but the numbers were
there. Out of those the cream popped up & many times was sold to those who could campaign them, that appears to no longer be the case. &
lastly, there were an awful lot of good breeding's done with the local stars, today the semen is shipped & it affects the gene pool.
 
#6 ·
People who compete at this level want to win. They would not care if the dog was pink if they could win. They run the breed that gives them the best chance at winning. Walker Hounds for instance, dominate the **** hounding world, why because they give them the best dog that can win **** hunting. The lab is the same for the retriever world.
 
#17 ·
Yes ,and I also think the rule change for tree points affected all the breeds...get in there quick and as far as you can and get 1st tree and shut them out.I truly think this has created a tight mouth on track....all the old greats,Finley River Chief,Houses Tom Tom,Finley River Dan were all open....dogs today not so much.....I wonder also if field trials havnt done the same to chessies and Golden's...just a thought...Jim
 
#9 ·
It would be interesting to see placements per entry of breed. I would guess that it takes less entries for a golden or chessie to get a placement. Although, the breed specialty trials pad that number.

Breed doesn't matter with a good dog and a good handler.

Tom
 
#8 ·
And out of those ten Chessies, one dog (DC AFC Comet) passed away from cancer far too young, and another dog's owner passed.

I think a better comparison would be looking at the number of dogs of each breed competing, and then see what percentage of each breed competing has all age points.
 
#11 ·
If all I wanted was to win ribbons, I would get a lab. That said I love Chessies and have had them for more than 30 years. I think Chessies are slower to mature; can be more difficult to train and time consuming as they learn best with attrition and less consistent in the retriever games. Labs have been bred for a long time compared to Chessies, and during that time they have been bred to be a great hunting dog, a fine companion and highly trainable. A few Chessies coming from field lines have reached the top. Some very nice show lines have shown that they can be accomplished in the retriever games. There is at least one grand show champion from show lines that is now QA2. Not a bad feat me thinks.
 
#12 ·
Pretty close to my thinking except I look at it as anyone can be successful in taking a lab to the higher level but I have a deep respect to those that do it with a peake:rolleyes:
 
#16 ·
Charles Morgan,1968:

"The Chesapeake and the Golden probably make a fine dog for the amateur, who can give more individual time, attention and loving care to his dog. The Lab fits into a pro's type of training better; he is a more satisfactory dog for a pro to train."

....and we play a pro trained/handled dominated game.

Tim
 
#22 · (Edited)
I really don't know why, most am stakes are as hard as the average open, but out of my Golden's 14 all age points, 13 are amateur points, and half my open point was with me handling him. I think the dedicated amateur owner-handler can become a formidable, tight team with his dog. Don't know why we haven't don as well in the Open, but I'm pleased to usually being in contention on Sunday.
 
#25 ·
Tyler ( GCH Blackwaters Livin On The Edge QA2) We now have bred 6 QA2 champions and its being passed on to the Grandkids. Tim Carrions Hank is QA2 and is out of our Tanner
(Blackwaters Chesabay Tanner QA2.)who went to the Nations and went 7 series


Thanks!Julie, he's pretty Special to us!
 
#27 ·
Maybe the lack of Goldens and Chessies having success in Field Trials is a good thing?

Both Goldens and Chessies have genetic health issues being exacerbated because of too much in breeding.


It's very encouraging to see different blood lines in the minority breeds having good success in the Hunt Test venues.


Don
 
#29 · (Edited)
There are a number of people, Judy Rasmussen, Jim Pickering, John Gunn, Glenda Brown on the Golden side, Julie Cole and Linda Harger with Chessies, who consistently title these minority breeds. On top of that there are a number of Goldens and Chessies running right now with multiple all age placements and wins, some have titled, some are close, to these people QA2 is meaningless and not worth noting. It's just different perspective, not judging or bad mouthing those people who are proud of their QA status, I remember when I would kill to have a qualifying greenie.

Every year about two Goldens and one Chessie out of 100 plus dogs qualify for the National Amateur, I think those stats match up pretty well with the ratio of dogs entered in field trials nationwide. I actually think Goldens beat those odds on placements. I remember a trial some time ago, 85 dog open, 12 got to the last series and four of them were Goldens, three happened to be FC or AFC. Two placed, second and fourth.

I don't know about the National Open, if this is an off year or the minority breeds don't do as well there. I do know that Goldens held their own in Nationals back in the 40-50s. What we have missed with Goldens the past 20 years, is that one dominating dog that people expect to win every time it runs. Right now it comes as a shock, and reason for jubilation when a Golden wins a trial. Back when Zeke was running, and to a lesser extent Beau, these dogs were expected by the Lab people to be in there at the end each weekend, the way you weren't surprised with Ammo or Chopper to name a couple.

Ps, I know I must have left a lot of names off my list, this is just off the top of my head, apologies to all I forgot.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Retriever results seems to be missing a bit of data, but crossing it back with EE, Porter appears to have an excellent Amateur career with 34 starts, 13 finishes, and 9 placements (6 of which were wins). Far from an expert, but that appears to rank right up there or better than the most consistent labs. 38% finish rate, 26% placement rate, and 18% win rate.

Obviously an extremely talented animal and a stellar team together.

I guess this has been going on in my back yard, I should get out more lol
 
#36 ·
What you probably didn't learn from EE is that Porter was originally owned by Susie Rich, but she sadly got cancer and passed away so Bill sort of inherited Porter when he was about 2 I think; he hasn't even had him his whole life. He does all his own training, making that record even more impressive because he maintains a dental practice too. He also has a recently retired AFC female Chesapeake, Judy, and a very nice Judy daughter Loretta that just became QA2 with a qual. win and am. 2nd. And he's a very nice guy too.
 
#40 ·
I think the lesson here is that it's more the owner-handler-trainer, than it is the dog. Out west here, I see Linda Harger having great success dog after dog, for generations. Obviously the breeding on these dogs is the best, but she consistently gets the most out it year after year.
 
#42 ·
Porter is a great dog and Bill Burke is a great handler. But! Porter was a wash out on Eckerts truck and Roy Morjon was good friends with Susie and always believed in the dog. He took the dog trained it for awhile and got Porter all age qualified and then talked to Bill about taking the dog and the rest is history and I hope he is a finisher at the Amat Nationals. Will chessie people breed to Porter like lab people bred to Grady etc. No! Also reaching the top is much more complicated than good trainer, good handler and good breeding. You need the right judges the right trials, the best grounds to train on and I can keep going.
 
#43 ·
Post #42 - MOSCOWITZ

A MEN!

And, trial tests that replicate training tests; sound basics; the right temperament (good marking ability),
willingness to please, strong desire for the birds, memory & STYLE; minimum change in handlers/trainers;
lots of campaigning (trials).

Bill Connor
 
#44 · (Edited)
Just what I've heard and seems to be the case with the minority breeds I know (couple of Goldens, and a Chessie)...Many of them don't travel well, and do not do well in the Pro-type environment, of travel, stay in the truck all day; kennels boxes etc. campaigning for weeks-months at a time. Seem to do much better with the Amateur type-big truck, home at night, 1-2 event every once in awhile life-style. Can't remember the last time or if ever I've seen a minority breed that makes his primary home on a pros truck, can't even remember any being consistently ran by pro handlers, let alone week after week. Less trials and less chances for any dog to win etc. if they are not traveling with a pro; who goes everywhere. Also most minority breed people are lifer type, meaning 1-2 dogs they keep for the dogs lifetime; you don't see Goldens and Chessie's being continuously cycled washed out by owners and moving on to the next one. Added to a very large field of Labs, pretty amazing there are individuals that get there at all.
 
#45 ·
I totally agree with your "lifer" owner type, my wife and I buy a pup and try to take it as far as its talent allows for the life of that dog. I've been in the game since 1993 and have had five dogs, we overlap every 5-6 years. That said, we do campaign hard, and I know quite a few pros out west who have multiple Goldens and Chessies on their truck year around. Before you ask, these are pros that take dogs to the National every year.
 
#46 ·
Bill Burke is an excellent handler/trainer/trialer...and a better person. He and Porter make a great team!

Ronan Bill
 
#47 ·
It doesn't help that there are judges with overwhelmingly clear biases against anything other than black dogs. Don't tell me there aren't as I have experienced it first hand on several occasions. I mean stuff like my dog stepping on the marks in the first while others hunted, having a good second series, having my dog not 10' off-line in the third with only having two casts and still getting dropped while black dogs that had multiple cast refusals and were 20 YARDS off-line got called back to the fourth. In that one in particular at the Cattle Ranch, after I contested the lack of a callback and was smugly told "My decision is final," another competitor asked me where I was going as I headed to my truck. When I told him (an All-Age judge) my Golden was dropped, his jaw dropped and he said "That's bull#%@&," so it wasn't just my perception. Another judge, also at the Cattle Ranch literally CLOSED HIS JUDGE's BOOK when we came back to the line after being no-birded previously. In other words, he had no intention of even bothering to score us. We were going to be dropped no matter what. A good friend of mine who was a very successful amateur even qualifying three dogs for the National Amateur in one year told me she regularly had the black dogs she owned and ran place when her Goldens had much better ttrials and only JAMed or got dropped. As despicable and unethical as it is when that occurs, this type of biased judging is alive and well in some active judges. That's why I wish all judges would judge like the late Tommy Fairchild. He once told me "I judge handlers from the butt down and dogs from the neck up." In other words, he set aside any personal issues with handlers or preferences with dogs and just judged the work.
 
#49 ·
Golden's and Chessie's are hard to find. They require more effort to find one and more training than a lab. Lab's can take the heat of e collar and still want the bird.
Just my thoughts ! I am not a FT guy other's know more than I forgot. I do believe a Golden makes a better all around family dog other than a lab. I have owned them both AKC master hunter Golden and akc registered lab.
I have never owned a chessie so have no input on them.
 
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