Help me understand something

[MooseGooser]

Training day.

200 yrd mark.
BB in white
Throw(bumper) is somewhat flat, and WELL AWAY from the gun.
LOTS of terrain going to mark. (I counted 5 cover changes, with a double water entry)

Most all dogs in the group needed help. Most all locked on the BB, but the throw was a long ways from the gun, and dog could not see it all the way to the ground.

I'm kinda a HRC guy. Dont want to stir anything up, but would someone explain to me the purpose of having the gun in White, but the THROW is nowwhere close to that area.

Mark ate our lunch. Bailey, who I feel is a excellent marker, had MAJOR troubles. She basically hunted the area around the BB.

Seems to me the white is a distraction (I know, how dare I)

Confused as usual

Gooser

[JS]

You're exactly right ..... white IS a distraction. And that is why a lot of people use white gunners in training, NOT to make it easier for the dogs as many people think. Gunners or stickmen in white exaggerate the distraction and make the lesson, whatever it is, more obvious. Especially in drills. A dog is more likely to flare a white gun station, for example than someone in camo behind a bush.
In this case it worked ... dogs sucked to the gunner. It just sounds like this mark may have been a bit much for the dogs that were doing it. Needed more teaching.
JS

[Kristie Wilder]

"why white gunners" ... my explanation...

the first reason I use white gunners is so that young dogs know where the mark is COMING from for purposes of FOCUS and CONCENTRATION on the mark. If you use hidden guns from the start, it takes that fraction of a second for the dog to figure out where the mark is -- therefore, dog misses part of the arc and part of the opporunity to MARK WELL.

so that's the FIRST reason... So dogs, as they learn to mark, have EVERY OPPORTUNITY to see the full arc and mark the fall.

The same philosophy applies to later training. But, of course, as dogs start to see more complex setups, the white gunner plays the role of a distraction ("behind the gun", "punchbird", "poison bird" and other setups where the gunner is an "issue").

NOW... without seeing your marking setup... I'm going to GUESS that the FACTORS were the problem and not the gunner. And when the dogs didn't FIGHT the factors, the most sensible place to go was to the area of the gunner.

But what the gunner DID was allow the dogs to see a nice, full arc with full concentration, giving them 100% opportunity to mark the fall. NOW, whether they are capable of ATTAINING the fall area is another issue.

Dogs that hunted the gun station probably did one of two things:

1) Didn't fight one or more or all factors en route
2) Weren't experienced enough for that complexity of mark and went the only place they could figure to go

Regardless of the exposed white gunner, a dog should be able to MARK.

There are some old style manual wingers at use in some local tests. And if you have a visible holding blind with one of those wingers, that seem to throw the bird 50 yards or so... You better work with your dog and make sure they aren't thinking "holding blind".

So... white gunners are SUPER for all kinds of things and are how I introduce ALL dogs to marks and marking concepts. Hidden and retired guns come later. it's about being able to FOCUS. And it helps dogs stay mentally settled later in hidden gun situations.

If ANYTHING, dogs should have greater success on more difficult marks with exposed white versus hidden gunners.

-K

[MooseGooser]

Thank you both

It seemed to me however for argument sake, that the dogs were so focused on the gunner, that they didnt see the bumper thrown, or lost it along its path, wanting to look back at the gunner in confusion.

My girl, I thought watched the mark well and got a good look at it, but after the double entry, and a slight hill to go over, she headed right to the gun station! I immediatly yelled for help and had the bb throw another one whilst she was in rout. She returned with the bumper.

I repeated, but still had trouble. Maybe I AM misinterpreting her problem, and its the factors she's having trouble with, then going to the most logical place.

Do most all of you use white gunners??
Do you that run HRC tests, or for that matter AKC Hunt tests, use white in your training.

Most of our HRC based training days will have all hidden guns. Dogs mark off the Handlers gun. Most of the "accomplished" trainers/ handlers will scoff at the idea of white coats. They're argument being that it is a crutch for the dog! I dont believe that for a second now.

Gooser

[Kristie Wilder]

Thank you both

It seemed to me however for argument sake, that the dogs were so focused on the gunner, that they didnt see the bumper thrown, or lost it along its path, wanting to look back at the gunner in confusion.

then either the dogs are inexperienced, the visilibility was bad or the gunner was moving before the mark was down. or they were headswinging..

My girl, I thought watched the mark well and got a good look at it, but after the double entry, and a slight hill to go over, she headed right to the gun station! I immediatly yelled for help and had the bb throw another one whilst she was in rout. She returned with the bumper.

Running to the gun isn't cause for panic. Especially with a difficult mark. IF there was a lot going on in between, she or the other dogs may have simply lost their bearing. I'd normally let a dog work it out. But ending up at the gun station, in and of itself, isn't immediate cause for gun help or handling. IF she was fading with a factor and THAT was putting her to the gun station, then she "can" be handled. But if the mark's over her head, it would probably be better to simplify by removing some of the factors.

I repeated, but still had trouble. Maybe I AM misinterpreting her problem, and its the factors she's having trouble with, then going to the most logical place.

Then you need to figure out why... Maybe simplify next time and see how she fares. If she can handle, then a mark that demanding would be cause for a handle with an experienced dog. If she's not very experienced, then you can't throw a mark that complex. You'd have to move up or change the line of the approach to eliminate some factors en route. You can also keep the gun STANDING. And remember to get down to the dog's perspective. If that many dogs had trouble, it could be that if you knelt down to their level, they may not have been able to see much at all...

Do most all of you use white gunners??
Do you that run HRC tests, or for that matter AKC Hunt tests, use white in your training.

In the off-season, I use almost all exposed guns. In hunt test season, I use about 50/50. Sometimes white, sometimes plain clothes without holding blinds, sometimes holding blinds. I use white ALWAYS when teaching ANY concept from scratch.

Most of our HRC based training days will have all hidden guns. Dogs mark off the gun. Most of the "accomplished" trainers/ handlers will scoff at the idea of white coats. They're argument being that it is a crutch for the dog! I dont believe that for a second now.

Gooser

Let them scoff. White coats aren't a crutch. They're a great way to create a focused, stable, well-marking dog.

Most hunt test marks are so short that factors are ALMOST irrelevant in many cases except on the longest birds... 40-50 yard marks in a crosswind are not the same challenge as 200-300 yard marks, which requrie a TON more effort and perserverance on the dogs part -- meaning the dog has to have a SUPER good mark to do it right -- and the white gunner helps give the dog the best opportunity to focus on the mark.

The people that scoff on them are the ones that don't understand their place in training. ...even for the HUNT TEST dog...

-Kristie

[Bob Gutermuth]

The white gun is supposed to draw the dogs attention to the spot where the mark originated, BUT, the dog is supposed to learn to mark the spot of the fall, not mark off the guns.

[Tim Carrion]

... would someone explain to me the purpose of having the gun in White, but the THROW is nowwhere close to that area.

Gooser

The visibility of the thrower can be used as both an attraction and a distraction. It all depends on your set-up: what you are trying to achieve, what is between the the bird and the thrower and the line and the bird.
For teaching inexperienced dogs to go long, look past multiple throwers or focus their head to where their body is lined visibility will help.
A visble thrower can used as a distraction. For example, having the arc of the throw over an obstacle or point of reference (ditch, canal, tree, bush).

How you wish to use gun/thrower visibilty is determined by the stage of the dog and purpose of the mark.

Tim

[Uncle Bill]

Ah yes, Grasshopper, I could have told you before you asked what problems you would experience with your set up. It ALL must be learned before it becomes easy.

Speaking for Bailey...White Jackets..."HUH???"

200 yard marks..."HUH???"

Dizzy MooseGooser handler..."Now that rings a bell."

I'll see you this weekend and give you some azz whoopin, so your little girl will get all happy again.

UB

[MooseGooser]

UB

Listen you Goober!!

Just tryin to go with the flow at the training day!

just remember , I dint get to sign your cast!(heard they tried to mummafy ya!) BUT I'm a bringin along my good old extra FAT majic markin pen for your forehead!!

Gooser

[MooseGooser]

YEA I KNOW!!

I DINT SPELT MUMMAFY RIGHT!!

Gooser