How do judges feel about a dog that has to be told to Fetch

[Gun_Dog2002]

How do judges feel about a master dog that upon finding the bird stands over it until told to fetch, then picks it up and brings it back. Scenerio: Master HT. Triples all 3 series. Dog steps on all the marks, but for each bird stands over it until the handler says "fetch, good, here, blows the whistle etc"

/Paul

[2tall]

No vote from me, no experience. But how weird!!!! I have not seen such a thing watching JH and SH tests. You mean the dog found the mark, and refused to pick it up? I guess I have to ask why he was there.

[brian lewis]

Depending on some factors

Is it a toller? I'm sorry it slipped, did I say that outloud?


Is the bird nasty, I don't mean a just little blue with no eyes and maggots
but really really nasty.


I'd suggest to lets see what the ol boy will do without a cheerleading crew.

[HuntinDawg]

No vote from me, no experience. But how weird!!!! I have not seen such a thing watching JH and SH tests. You mean the dog found the mark, and refused to pick it up? I guess I have to ask why he was there.

I promise you if you go watch an entire flight of Junior or Started you WILL see this several times. If you just show up and run your dog and you basically just see the dog or two ahead of you you might not see it. I've been at Junior and Started tests where the handler stated that his/her dog had never had real birds or had relatively few birds. AND the birds can get pretty rank sometimes. You will also likely see some handlers begging their dogs to deliver to hand.

[Griff]

I haven't judged so I won't vote, but I've taken the course and apprenticed... so this is my opinion for what it's worth...

Every mark, every series? I dog that can step on the marks, honors, takes the diversions, handles, etc. everything it takes to master and can't pick up a mark bird without a command?

I can see a dog who had never seen/smelled a chukar being leery on the first one or maybe two; or unwilling to pick up a NASTY duck, but not every mark every series.

Was the handler just saying it out of habit? Or do you feel the dog NEEDED the handler to say it before making a move to pick it up.

From AKC rules:
"In marked retrieves, if a dog, after having been sent to retrieve... ...fails to pick the bird up, actually leaving it after finding it,... ...shall be sufficient cause, unless there exist in the opinion of the Judges valid mitigating circumstances, to grade the dog “0” in Marking or Perseverance.
AND
"Upon finding the game, a dog shall quickly pick it up and return briskly to its handler."

IMHO the mark is not complete until the dog picks up the mark. NOTE: the bird is obviously not complete until in hand, but the marking portion of the bird is.

If the handler would not have said "fetch" and, in the opinion of the judges, the dog wouldn't have picked it up OR without the command the dog would have become confused, then to me "fetch" is issuing a command prior to the dog picking up the bird and is a handle on the mark.

Based solely on the information provided... probably a fail (but kind of unfair without some warning as this is a judgement call).

In a perfect world with 20/20 vision and time to contemplate it here; as a judge in that situation after the first series I would ask the handler if the dog has any problems (sore jaw, teeth, etc.) and if not I would explain the rule, that I have some question of the dog's ability to pick up the marks on his own, and that in the next two series I would like to see the dog attempt to do it on his own without a handle or each time he does it in the subsequent series I would be recording it as a handle. If the handler uses "fetch", it's a handle. If he doesn't and the dog picks 'em up fine, then it's probably just a habit the handler has gotten into; if he doesn't and the dog becomes confused, or refuses to pick up a bird it's a trainability issue (scored accordingly) and the handler would still have to "fetch" handle to complete the mark(s).

[HuntinDawg]

Just to clarify my earlier post, I didn't vote because I'm not a judge and what I said about Junior and Started does not have any bearing on the poll question, only on the post I was replying to. In my opinion a Master dog shouldn't have to be encouraged that way (nor a Senior, Seasoned or Finished dog) unless the birds were really really nasty in which case other good dogs would likely be balking a little as well.

[Bob Gutermuth]

Just to play devils advocate here, the judges should examine all three birds. It isn't an everyday happening, but it is possible that the dog was stung/bitten by a yellowjacket, bee wasp or especially in the deep South fire ant(s), or stuck in the mouth by a protruding wing bone and is shying off the birds for that reason.

[pupaloo]

I bet that's a habit his handler taught him. When my pup was little and starting retrieves, I'd tell him "good" when he got to the mark and picked it up. As he figured it out, I stopped telling him-and he would look at me the same way that this dog has been described as waiting for the "fetch" command. We got past it, though.

[K G]

How do judges feel about a master dog that upon finding the bird stands over it until told to fetch, then picks it up and brings it back. Scenerio: Master HT. Triples all 3 series. Dog steps on all the marks, but for each bird stands over it until the handler says "fetch, good, here, blows the whistle etc"

/Paul

Methinks there is a trainability issue at hand here.

Forgiveable in Junior, annoying in Senior (but maybe a droppable offense, depending on the frequency), disturbing the hunt in Master.

Absent any valid mitigating circumstances, I believe the frequency of the occurence would call for a failure.

kg

[badbullgator]

Pretty much what KG said. Juniors OK to some extent, although I would not like to see even a junior dog have to be encouraged in that way on EVERY bird. A senior or master dog I will give them one IF there are circumstances such as a rotten bird or a possible distraction form outside the test that interfered with the dog. More than once…bye-bye.