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Thread: I really didn't think it would be this hard..........

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ed Hogan's Avatar
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    Default I really didn't think it would be this hard..........

    to find a pro or am. to help out with training. I have found that it is like some great secret or something. I have looked and asked just about everywere that is close to home and seem to get shrugged. These are the same people I have purchased pups from. It's not like I am asking for free, I have offered to pay, but never a returned phone call. I get " I have your number, I will call you". Does anyone else seem to have this problem or is it just me? Yeah, one day I would love to do this full time, but I don't that happening anytime soon. Too much left to learn. Do you think they feel I am trying to steal buisiness or something? I just don't get it.

  2. #2
    Kristie Wilder
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    Default Re: I really didn't think it would be this hard..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunrise Kennels
    to find a pro or am. to help out with training. I have found that it is like some great secret or something. I have looked and asked just about everywere that is close to home and seem to get shrugged. These are the same people I have purchased pups from. It's not like I am asking for free, I have offered to pay, but never a returned phone call. I get " I have your number, I will call you". Does anyone else seem to have this problem or is it just me? Yeah, one day I would love to do this full time, but I don't that happening anytime soon. Too much left to learn. Do you think they feel I am trying to steal buisiness or something? I just don't get it.
    I don't know who's near you or whom you've called... But there can be a tendency for people to be wary about having new folks come out and train... There have been multiple threads on this "phenomenon".

    In a nutshell, many people that "want to come out to train" will not be committed and tend to be more trouble than it's worth to have them come out. That is the God's honest truth. People THINK they want to come out and be committed to training and then they find out how much work and time is involved and they slowly or quickly dwindle off. Then you, as a pro or am, have spent your time teaching them stuff, training them how to throw birds, etc. and it was wasted.

    I've only had it happen a couple of times and it's generally not a big deal, but I'm in an area where there just aren't a lot of retriever folks (it's nice sometimes) and my training group is generally a few close friends that train their own dogs, my employees and my clients. A couple of times I've had people come out and it can be more of a pain. I had one guy who claimed he was a good shooter and very safe and he was litterally peppering an employee. I absolutely lost it and shut down training for the day.

    It's just not worth it esp if you have all the help you need like many of us do. It can be more of a risk and liability for your client dogs -- if someone isn't paying attention when you signal for a throw or gunner help or holler or whatever... You only have "x" minutes, sometimes seconds at the line to get training done and if someone isn't doing their job in the field, you lose that training opportunity.

    There's all the negative stuff... Which MAY be why people aren't receptive. Some people just don't want to be bothered. And even when people pay, it sometimes isn't worth the trouble. New dogs and people add hours and/or increments of hours to the work day. I have 18 dogs training right now (off today) and I just don't really have room for other dogs to train, period.

    Anyway, not to sound ugly, but just to explain what MAY be one or more of the reasons.

    BUT DON'T STOP TRYING!!!! IF you are dedicated and IF you are going to be committed... Keep at it. IF you like the pro(s) or am(s) you called, keep trying and send some emails explaining what you'd like to do. OFFER TO GO OUT AND ***WATCH*** (JUST watch, NOT run your dog) so you can pick up on how things work, what the signals are, how training operates....

    That's what I recommend people do the first time they come out here anyway and it's what I do with new employees. It can show that you actually CARE and want to LEARN about what's going on versus just running your dog and taking off...

    Good luck.

    -K

  3. #3
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
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    Years ago when I first became interested in training I dreamed about one day doing it professionally. I had the time for a couple of dogs so I called a pro and asked him what he thought about me helping him out...he is a big time pro. I figured it would help him out by me taking a few young dogs and getting them started and then sending the dogs to him for the transition and advanced training. I won't say he was nasty about it, but it wasn't the most pleasant conversation I have ever had. I think for pros that have been doing this for a long time it is a guarded profession so to speak. I think this guy assumed I was trying to establish a training facility near by and take business from him when I was only trying to help him out and in the process learn all I could so one day I COULD maybe do it professionally. But, good Lord I was only 19!!

  4. #4
    Kristie Wilder
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownEast
    Years ago when I first became interested in training I dreamed about one day doing it professionally. I had the time for a couple of dogs so I called a pro and asked him what he thought about me helping him out...he is a big time pro. I figured it would help him out by me taking a few young dogs and getting them started and then sending the dogs to him for the transition and advanced training. I won't say he was nasty about it, but it wasn't the most pleasant conversation I have ever had. I think for pros that have been doing this for a long time it is a guarded profession so to speak. I think this guy assumed I was trying to establish a training facility near by and take business from him when I was only trying to help him out and in the process learn all I could so one day I COULD maybe do it professionally. But, good Lord I was only 19!!
    The folks that do young dogs for big time pros have been doing it FOREVER and are big time pros themselves -- Jim Van Engan is the first one that comes to mind.

    I don't think it has much to do with guarded secrets, as much as it has to do with the fact that folks don't realize JUST how much is involved in raising and training a dog for almost ANY level of training, never mind national caliber training (a whole different ballgame to the hunt tests I train for).

    It takes years to learn how to properly raise a puppy that will transition smoothly into training. This is why people do it professionally... JUST raise puppies.

    I'm not defending nastiness.... Don't get me wrong. But it would have taken you 3-5 years AT LEAST (on average) before you would probably have ever been allowed to take one of the dogs to raise and train for the pro you mentioned.

    -K

  5. #5
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder
    Quote Originally Posted by DownEast
    Years ago when I first became interested in training I dreamed about one day doing it professionally. I had the time for a couple of dogs so I called a pro and asked him what he thought about me helping him out...he is a big time pro. I figured it would help him out by me taking a few young dogs and getting them started and then sending the dogs to him for the transition and advanced training. I won't say he was nasty about it, but it wasn't the most pleasant conversation I have ever had. I think for pros that have been doing this for a long time it is a guarded profession so to speak. I think this guy assumed I was trying to establish a training facility near by and take business from him when I was only trying to help him out and in the process learn all I could so one day I COULD maybe do it professionally. But, good Lord I was only 19!!
    The folks that do young dogs for big time pros have been doing it FOREVER and are big time pros themselves -- Jim Van Engan is the first one that comes to mind.

    I don't think it has much to do with guarded secrets, as much as it has to do with the fact that folks don't realize JUST how much is involved in raising and training a dog for almost ANY level of training, never mind national caliber training (a whole different ballgame to the hunt tests I train for).

    It takes years to learn how to properly raise a puppy that will transition smoothly into training. This is why people do it professionally... JUST raise puppies.

    I'm not defending nastiness.... Don't get me wrong. But it would have taken you 3-5 years AT LEAST (on average) before you would probably have ever been allowed to take one of the dogs to raise and train for the pro you mentioned.

    -K
    Hey, I understand that now!!! Like I said I was YOUNG with what I THOUGHT was a bright idea!!!!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Ed Hogan's Avatar
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    Kristy, I understand everything you are saying. I am 36 years old so I'm not a yougster. I have been working with dogs for a long time and have found to have a special connection with them. I got into retrievers about 6-7 years ago. I train 2 times a day with 3 at this time and still work a 50hr. week in the Aerospace industry. Kennels are cleaned daily and on Sundays I do a complete Dis-infecting, Dedication is not a question. I do put this forward when talking with trainers. My biggest obstacle is understanding the benefits of the set ups. So in return I don't know how to get the most out of it. I go to FT's and HT's and watch the pro's intently. I do learn alot about body language, do's and dont's, but not able to ask WHY. I understand a newbe being a pain in the a$$ but who taught the pro's ? I think they seem to forget that. Experience in the field with my dawgs eventually I will figure it all out. What I'm trying to prevent is screwing up too many good dawgs. So far I have only messed up one, thank god.

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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Basically most pros don't have time to have someone follow them around and most have requests like yours often. You can put your dogs in training with a pro that is interested in training amateurs, then run your dogs for awhile and be successful. Most pros started out as bird boys or learned from the family. Thinking about turning pro someday should be put on the back burner. You have to pay your dues and be seen running dogs before you can even think about being a pro. Also. if you are asking to bring 3 dogs to train that is an instant turn-off for any group. Try 1 dog.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  8. #8
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    sometime the thing with nebies is when they go out with a group they just want to watch and dont want to ever go throw and do there part in throwing for the others.not saying you would do that

  9. #9
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    I think for a lot of pros the difficulty is adapting a demanding schedule around a person who is an unknown. A visitor can disrupt training in so many ways without intending to. We almost never have anyone throw birds, even experienced people, unless and until they've trained with us for a long time. People seem to find so many unforeseeable ways to make a throw that messes up the test.

    There's also the simple fact of having to set an appointment. The process of training is somewhat "organic." You get up in the morning and make a decision where to go and what to set up based on the weather, wind, lighting conditions, and what the dogs have shown you they need over the last few days. Some of your grounds you can't take visitors, because of the extra traffic, or the concern they will go train there on their own, and cost you your permission to use the grounds. Some setups might take all your time and leave none to give the visitor the attention they need. So every appointment you make is another day where "what the dogs need" gets bumped down in the hierarchy of decision making.

    We are now doing lessons regularly one day a week, but the woman who prodded us into getting started called and emailed and emailed and called and didn't let it rest until finally it happened.

    Amy Dahl

  10. #10
    Kristie Wilder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunrise Kennels
    Kristy, I understand everything you are saying. I am 36 years old so I'm not a yougster. I have been working with dogs for a long time and have found to have a special connection with them. I got into retrievers about 6-7 years ago. I train 2 times a day with 3 at this time and still work a 50hr. week in the Aerospace industry. Kennels are cleaned daily and on Sundays I do a complete Dis-infecting, Dedication is not a question. I do put this forward when talking with trainers. My biggest obstacle is understanding the benefits of the set ups. So in return I don't know how to get the most out of it. I go to FT's and HT's and watch the pro's intently. I do learn alot about body language, do's and dont's, but not able to ask WHY. I understand a newbe being a pain in the a$$ but who taught the pro's ? I think they seem to forget that. Experience in the field with my dawgs eventually I will figure it all out. What I'm trying to prevent is screwing up too many good dawgs. So far I have only messed up one, thank god.
    I don't think anyone forgets. We all pay our dues. I think everyone, unless they were raised within a family business, struggled to figure out how they want to train a dog. Wait until the day you become a pro and you may experience it. I don't know about other pros. I know a lot don't have many or any people come out. But I know a lot have tons of people come out. I, personally, like to focus on what I'm doing and keep things moving and get everything done that I need to get done. If we're doing something intense, I won't be talking much. When we have light days, I really enjoy being able to chat with folks out training with me. Some days that's not possible...

    It is our work. And having new people come out just isn't always suited to the work we need to get done. If you called a pro with 16-24 dogs in training, he or she just PLAINLY probably doesn't have time to chat and discuss and teach.

    That takes a LOT of time. If I get to the field in the morning and pick out my setup, I'm then directing the equipment being setup, doing test throws, making sure tie-outs and all are out. There just isn't time to sit there and teach someone and it usually isn't worth the money. It's not a secret and it's not being ugly, it's just doing the job you are committed to do. And if you have a very full truck, there's literally just enough time in a full day to get everyone trained.

    I highly recommend Mike Lardy's workshops if you haven't been. You will learn more than you can imagine in just a few days...

    -K

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