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Memory

5K views 24 replies 15 participants last post by  Miriam Wade 
#1 ·
I would like to hear some ideas on helping develope a dogs memory. I have a 4 yr old female (she is QAA) that will literally step on a 500 yard single regardless of factors. One I remember in particular had 5 water entries. She is absolutly incredible on singles but has trouble on memory birds. She gets much better if worked eveyday but loses it if I only get out occaisionally.
I've been setting up triples but running them as singles then going back to the same set up three or four days later and run the triple cold. Or sometimes will run the long memory bird as a single put her up then bring her back out and run the triple after I have run the other dogs.
Any suggestions???????
 
#3 ·
We are working with a couple of youngsters that have the same issue. One is a good marker, but impulsive, and until recently would not concentrate on the memory bird. The other appears to look at it, but not to remember. We have been training them on a mixture of challenging combinations run as singles, and easier doubles. It is possible to put the memory bird in fairly obvious places, such as in the water on the far side of a small pond (with a splash). The entry can be fairly long and it still doesn't require much memory to remember the mark is in the pond, especially with the thrower visible. They run to the pond, get in honestly as trained, and before long they find the mark. Keep in mind that "featureless fields" can be difficult places to mark and remember.

We do this and wait for the dog to develop memory in his/her own time. One of ours is steadily improving, while the other seemed to make slow progress until last week. She appears to be making a big jump forward.

We have tended to be of the school of repeating marks in order to teach certain things. We are finding these youngsters who need to develop memory are subject to a lot of confusion over old falls, so we have made a strict practice not to repeat any marks on the same day, with them. Subsequent days, we usually stick to "repeat the concept, not the set-up."

I feel this approach is working well for our youngsters. They are getting the exposure to important combinations (as singles) while developing memory at their own pace. YMMV.

Amy Dahl
 
#4 ·
impulsive, and until recently would not concentrate on the memory bird
Farmer calls this being a disciplined marker. One thing that they do is setup a Open type multiple and run the marks as singles out of order with the guns up. Not exactly using secondary/primary selection. More like throwing the long retired gun - sending the dog - retiring the gun - even if it demands tight lines around the guns still standing. Very difficult and important skill.
 
#5 ·
Gerard, is that like what you might do for head-swinging? I feel like this youngster does a kind of "mental head-swing." She gives it a look, but doesn't commit it to memory. If I understand you right, we've done some of the same. She's really coming around now.

Amy Dahl
 
#6 ·
No - not for head swinging - more for "mind wandering".

The bird send for might require going thight by flyer guns or swiming by other guns still out (unshot). What we are working on is the dicispline to concentrate on the bird we are going for - ignoring other things.

Total confusion drills - moving bird boy drills - Advanced versions of W or ABC drills work on the same thing.
 
#8 ·
For anyone:

When increasing the difficulty of marks thrown as multiples, do you, AS A GENERAL RULE,

1 - increase the difficulty of the key memory bird and keep the go bird(s) easier/quicker to pick up

or

2 - make the memory bird an easier-to-find confidence builder and increase the difficulty of the go bird???

JS
 
#10 ·
I run a lot of singles using the bird in mouth method Mike lardy stuff dog picks up first bird comes back to heel holds onto bird while the next gunner throws a mark handle takes bird and sends dog for next mark the slight delay of taking the bird makes it almost like a mini memory , I also started to have a gunner throw a mark then The handler throws a hand thrown mark dog scoopes it up and then sends the dog for the memory also like a mini memory Its still a memory mark only difference is a long time has not pasted between marks and retrieves A couple weeks ago I trained with some field trial guys and saw something interesting They had a hip pocket setup as a double threw the memory bird and then the go bird dog picked up memory bird then the memory bird gun station remained standing and threw another bird without a shot dog ran out picked up memory bird don't know if that had any merit as far as helping to develop memory but I found it interesting
 
#11 ·
JS said:
For anyone:

When increasing the difficulty of marks thrown as multiples, do you, AS A GENERAL RULE,

1 - increase the difficulty of the key memory bird and keep the go bird(s) easier/quicker to pick up

or

2 - make the memory bird an easier-to-find confidence builder and increase the difficulty of the go bird???

JS
Both but not at the same time.... Depends on what your working on and what your trying to accomplish.

Angie
 
#15 · (Edited)
I'm bumping this up. Ryder has trouble with bird #3, my fault being off a year and then messing him up early '09. We have made improvements-staying out there hunting, not switching, still have a lot of work to do. I like the thread and wonder if anyone wants to add to it.

Noticed a few weeks ago that Ryder is running longer marks with his head down. Thinking I've been doing too much short stuff and need to stretch him out more.

Fields are harvested and now we can get out in them to do some much longer stuff-featureless type fields and some good fields with fall along woods. Close to home easy access. Keep in mind I'm training by myself during the week-do have wingers.

One trainer friend suggested doing singles one day and coming back to the same field the next day- putting singles together as a triple.

just spotted the related threads on bottom. Good reading.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I suggest two things.

One rethrow the memory bird. EX. In a double (or after the second bird of a triple) have the dog pick out the memory bird. Then have the BB throw again...no shot, no yelling. They only thing the BB would do is if the dog cannot pick them out, have them move just a bit. Again, no yelling, no shot...make the dog pick them out. They rethrow and send. This is easier on their memory and does help improve it. They see the double or triple, but get a bit of help on the tough bird. Then you can just go to have the BB simple motioning just a bit, like a half arm motion of a throw (if that makes sense). The dogs will pick up on it very quickly. Like someone else said eailier, pressure will not help them remember. So this helps them stay out of having to handle or be corrected for other things. We have also done it on AA dogs on long retireds, for some of the more mild dogs that you didnt want to get into any jams with at the time. They stay more confident and more relaxed and that helps a dog mark. Its really nice for teaching a pup the "mechanics" of a double without expecting them to remember a double.

The other is a marking drill by hand throwing bumpers to spots...give this a read...

http://ponderosakennels.com/m-m-drill-hand-thrown-marking-drill-memory-improvement
 
#17 ·
Here ya go.
1. First of all Slow down. Everything. Take lots of time on the mat. Make the dog watch the bird. In training, don't call for the 2nd bird for 10-40 seconds. Make him look at it. Run lots of singles like this off of multiple gun stations

2. When the dog comes back from a mark, slow down. Make him really look at the memory bird wait till you really have a lock. Watch his breathing, watch his eyebrows, look for the ears to rise slightly depicting he has the picture back.

3. Do popups to learn the dogs eyeset. Rorem does this with his dogs and in his seminar. Have a retired gunner in the field and before sending the dog on this mark, have the gunner stand up. Watch the eyes to see where they go. That will tell you where the dog is really looking. Just because you have nose/forhead lined up correctly, doesn't mean that is where the dog is looking.

4. Get the spine lined up correctly. Even if the dog appears to be looking correctly, he can be thrown off by going where his body is lined up. 4inches off at the line is 40 yards off at 150 yards

5. Lardy's organized confusion drills is great for teaching focus. Let the dog learn to work with distractions. We often sanitize the training so much that just the slightest little distraction throws the dog off at the test.

6. If the dog doesn't show any recogniztion of the mark at the line, don't send him. Don't just send him out there to fail. Build on success. Have the gunner stand, shoot, or even rethrow a bird. Dogs build confidence through sucess. Confidence builds memory

7. Don't handle to marks. Only handle for failure to fight a factor. Any dog, even at the FC/AFC level needs to build and maintain confidence on marks. Handlers helping or handling the dog deminish that. If the dog gets lost, have the gunner help the dog.

8. Correct the dog, don't nag the dog. Nagging leads to bad attitude, which kills memory because the dog doesn't want to do the work in the first place. It becomes a self fullfilling prophecy if the dog doesn't want to work, then doesn't pay attention and gets nagged more for it.

9. As a handler have a plan. in hte holding blind decide how you are going to run this setup. Keep a mental attitude that instead of a triple, you have 3 singles. Go pick them up

10. Do you job as a good handler coming out of the blind. When you approach the test, have the dog looking at the key bird or memory bird. Don't walk out of the holding blind with the dog looking at the go bird, give him lots of time to make a picture of the memory. Use queue words only on the key bird or memory bird. Tell him mark or watch. then remain silent for the others.
There's 10 things to get you started....

/Paul
 
#20 ·
/paul-great post, but question: You say to have a game plan when coming out of the holding blind. I know the good handlers do and that the game plan may change depending on how many dogs they've run or watched on the setup. If you have a pretty good marking dog (does well on triples, quads & retireds)-how often do you let him determine the game plan?

Also-in terms of slowing down. Lets say you are pretty good (always room for improvement!) at that in terms of showing the marks before they are thrown, but have a habit of not holding your end up and going much too fast sending for the memory birds. Fortunately-the dog usually does just fine, but you know you are not sweating him on line enough. What's the fine line when he comes in-lines himself up-really seems committed, but you know you aren't giving him time to settle? Can you hinder some dogs (making excuses here) by taking too much time on line before sending for the memory birds?

Hope this is clear!

Speedy Gonzales (but working on it!) Regards-

M
 
#23 ·
/paul-great post, but question: You say to have a game plan when coming out of the holding blind. I know the good handlers do and that the game plan may change depending on how many dogs they've run or watched on the setup. If you have a pretty good marking dog (does well on triples, quads & retireds)-how often do you let him determine the game plan?

Also-in terms of slowing down. Lets say you are pretty good (always room for improvement!) at that in terms of showing the marks before they are thrown, but have a habit of not holding your end up and going much too fast sending for the memory birds. Fortunately-the dog usually does just fine, but you know you are not sweating him on line enough. What's the fine line when he comes in-lines himself up-really seems committed, but you know you aren't giving him time to settle? Can you hinder some dogs (making excuses here) by taking too much time on line before sending for the memory birds?

Hope this is clear!

Speedy Gonzales (but working on it!) Regards-

M
Part of a good game plan is determining how you’re going to run the test, the pickup order, which birds you will queue on, how loud to send etc. You should see yourself running the test. An aspect that is more difficult is to visualizing what can go wrong. What if he has a monster hunt on the go bird, what will I do differently on the memory bird? What if he starts to switch, where will I handle? What if he locks on the flyer and flash marks the other birds, what will I do? Good handlers are good handlers because they not only have a game plan, they have backup game plans for what could go wrong. That is why they seem so calm when things go to hell in a hand basket and why it appears they are so adaptable. They are mentally prepared to the win, yet ready for chaos.

The dog should never rule the game plan. There is a pecking order to the team and the handler should be in charge. That being said there are times when there is no technical advantage to the order of pickup and if the dog comes in, clearly locks on a bird and tells me that he’s good to go, then I will allow him to go get it. The tricky part is when there is a technical advantage to pick birds up in a particular order. As a handler you have to decide if the dog has the experience and skills to perform in a different order, does he really know where he is going and can he do the last mark successfully if I let him change this up. That is where knowing your dog, his strength and weaknesses, will come into play. You should have considered this in the holding blind as part of your overall game plan so that on the line if he’s telling you I want this bird, you know what you’re decision is.


Couple of things. Sweating a dog is typically done in the field, at least from my perspective, not at the line. It begins in training. If a dog begins to refuse handles, start loopy sits, not stopping, refusing to get in water, generally go out of control etc, then a long hard whistle followed by a longer than normal sit followed with a huge correction for that dog. This is typically preceded by a few cast refusals where I chose to just handle again with no correction. Some would say your letting the dog get away with cast refusals and he should be corrected each time, but if you wait for the correction then you’ve tried to give the dog the benefit of the doubt, made allowance for the dog perhaps not seeing the cast, you’ve done all you can do to work with the dog and show him what you want, now you have him “hand in the cookie” jar and a correction is warranted. Make it count. Now when you get to the test and the dog starts to out of control and you get a cast refusal, or you’re needing to get in water or off a point, you can make him sit and wait. Make him sweat. He’s learned that when he hears the big whistle and has to sit there longer than normal, guess what comes next? The big correction. “Oh sheet here it comes.” A dog that understands this will most likely take your next cast in the test because you have intimidated him, yes I’ll say the dreaded word “intimidated,” him and got the cast. You judges out there close your eyes, nothing to read here.

This last question is a very good question. Rorem discussed this at length this past weekend. Every dog will learn the rhythm of the handler over time. Frankly this is why you see different performance from a dog when the Pro handles the dog vs. the amateur handling the dog. The rhythm or cadence is different between the two, typically the pro would be slower and more methodical from repetition. If you decide to change your rhythm then the dog will adapt over a short period of time. Now in your scenario can you confuse or worry a dog by changing the rhythm, yes you can. You want to take your time, let the dog see the picture come into focus and when you read that the dog has recognition then send him. If you wait longer you may talk him out of it. This is again where knowing and reading your dog comes into play. If his eyes lock, his eyebrows go up, he leans forward, then let him go. Reality is though that handling fast only leads to larger percentage of mistakes. Take your time, teach the dog to work on your timeframe and you’ll see better results.

/Paul





 
#25 ·
Thanks Paul for a very, very thoughtful response and useful advice. Especially appreciate how what you gleaned from the Rorem workshop applied to my question.

Merry Christmas!

M
 
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