I've read here and heard people infer that bringing dogs to the line in a HT can be difficult for the younger dogs. What is it that is difficult? Are they just wound so tight that they will not sit still?
Remember, I'm coming from the versatile dog background. We do have tightly wound dogs but I don't see a whole lot of problems at the beginning of steadiness sequences where a retrieve is required. I can easily heal my dogs up to the sequence, have them sit and wait out the gunfire and distractions before making retrieves.
What am I missing? Are we talking about two different things?
I am qualified to answer that question since my 10 month old male ran his first two jr hunt tests last weekend. He was a borderline nutcase in the holding blinds and going to the line. I had to stop several times going to the line and get him to sit down so he wouldn't look completely out of control. The duck calls and other dogs and gunshots and dead ducks flying everywhere were almost too much for him to handle. Can't quite similate all that with a one to two man training group...but we're working on it. Thank goodness you are allowed to use a leash in jr. He was walking on two feet part of the way to the line for the last water test.
I can second Stephen's remarks only in a different venue .... me and my lab ran our first NAHRA STARTED tests a couple of weeks ago. Thank God we passed both 2/2, but I struggled the whole time with him walking at heal. He was just so fired up and excited like nothing I've seen before. I was actually going to scrap him from the test until another handler (who used to train German Shepards in the ARMY) said to use the slip lead up high and tight on his neck. We got through, but we will be working on obedience and walking at heal throughout the winter and through hunting season, before I attempt to run another test with him.
Oh-I soooo need to post to this! I have a dog that around the house is as mellow & loving as can be. Quiet, laid back, etc. Do obedience routines (I'd like to get his CD & CDX before too long) & his heeling is flawless-great eye contact-fun dog! When training alone or in the group he knows well is very, very good on line. But... ...he goes up quite a few notches at a test or trial! We ran a WCX yesterday & he was ummm... ..animated! He's not vocal & doesn't creep, but he broke (controlled-thank goodness!) for the 1st time in a very long time. Thankfully-it didn't effect his marks, but he was wired for sound! He does work with me on line though, but was a little more "itchin' to go!".In his defense (O'm making excuses!) we normally motel it & have a morning routine. This time I started driving at 4:30 to get there in time to air & not much else.
However-rather than this being a true Jekyll & Hyde -it's a matter of a lot of exposure to group training & lots of birds & flyers. One of my judges (GREAT judges BTW) after the test was done made that suggestion.
One of the biggest advantages the pro dogs (& serious amateurs w/ a solid training group) have is a steady diet of training that simulates a trial-right down to flyers & a lot of help in the field. It takes the wide as saucer eyes reaction out of the picture & the dog is more focused because it's become somewhat routine. NOT that they still don't know the difference & step things up a notch, but it helps.
You want (duh!) that desire or it's no fun watching 'em run once the judge calls your #, but you do need the obedience to assure he's going to be a team player.
Last famous words, "he didn't do that in training." Most people find out how quickly their dogs know a test is different than training. With the junior and started tests they can be run young and many times too often as with a double junior, before obedience is reliable, and they quickly become unmanageable for the novice. I don't run my dogs until they are older to avoid having to correct the damage by running them too young and too much.
I don't see a whole lot of problems at the beginning of steadiness sequences where a retrieve is required.
In my opinion,, your seeing the difference in the breeds. Your working a Pointer, that will retrieve.
Big difference in that a retriever is bred to retrieve. The only problem He's got, is that he has to wait till he's told to do it by command. And they just cant WAIT to get that command!
It would be like askin the pointer to only point(lift that tail, and become staunch) the bird it has found when YOU Commanded him to!! He too would be excited, and I'm sure you would experiance the controll issues!
I have an 8 month old that in training can be counted on to walk at heel to the line off leash, honor other dogs off lead, and sit quietly until sent without being held. Once released, she is a bolt of lightning nailing the bird in stride and returning promptly. Sometimes she even gives me the bird gently to hand. ;-)
When I entered her in JH tests, she was virtually impossible to control in the blinds and walked to the line on two legs. The combination of shotguns instead of .22 blanks, flyers that she could smell, see and hear but that other dogs were bringing back, the leash itself, and the interminable wait for her turn undermined all training. Fortunately, at the line she remained steady since she knew it was her turn. She completely nailed the birds. Unfortunately she was even less happy about giving up the bird than usual. She passed her first two tests on the strength of her retrieving. On her next two, I picked her up immediately when she didn't give me the bird instantly. I'll wait a while before trying her again.
Borrow Otter for a weekend and your question will be answered.When you run him at home you'll be thinking "piece of cake",he's ready.Calm as can be.Get him to the test and he's a different animal.I never really understood "jacked up" before I got this dog.I thought it meant "excited".It really means "Eyes glazed over,training out the window,vocal,handler dragging nutcase".Or in his words "I want that bird NOW!!!!".
Left hand quarter turns in the holding blind. Make the dog yield to you at heel. Run the heck out of them when you air before it is you turn. It gets better but sometimes they still want to forge ahead.
Oh boy!!! Juniors are fun. It's amazing the difference in manners from JH to SH. Our male is VERY driven. He was our first dog we ever ran. On lead for walks was NO problem lying down with distractions didn't matter...BUT...at the HT his OB went out his ears. He is a large dog so, the first test I believe he drug my husband to the line..lol. The judge looked back as they were hearing him breathing like a bull..front feet off the ground and raring up like a horse ready to go.LOL.. The judge says nicely...after the test next time bring him up off lead. I would rather you stop every few steps and sit him than him off two feet. So, he did!! It was amazing the difference. People are so afraid that their dog will take off and maybe some will but, most who have trained in these situations are use to being walked up with no lead and in training you work a lot on heel..sit. I think a lot of people are afraid that they look bad stopping every few steps sitting their dog or saying heel 15 times before they get to the line. BUT, the judges we have ran under would rather see the dog on all fours moving slow then the dog dragging you to the line. Juniors are fun...
My dog is a different animal off lead vs. on lead. On the leash in exciting situations she's a basket case, but take her off leash and she usually calms right down. It's really strange and totally counterintuitive but that's the way she is. I think it probably has to do with the fact that historically we only really use the leash if it's an exciting situation, otherwise she's always off leash, so she automatically associates the leash with excitement. Haven't taken her to a hunt test and only out for field training with a group once, so who knows what will happen when she does her first test...
The best advice I have ever got about walking up to the line with a "jacked up" high drive dog, was offered to me by a pro that was handling a friends dogs at a test this weekend. After a year of hard work, lots of trips to club days, and a week with Kristie, my dog was really good though obviously very excited, for both set ups Saturday. Sunday morning, as expected, he was a little more wound up, but still put in a fine run. By Sunday after noon at the water I was starting to get a little worried as we had to walk down a muddy bank to the line. Back in the spring we had already had a wild experience of being dragged through the mud in front of a huge gallery. My nerves about the situation were not helping matters. But this guy, (I will not mention his name unless he wants me to) told me to try taking him OFF THE LEASH! What a counter intuitive idea! He had noticed that my dog was good at sit and staying put when commanded, so he said why get into a pulling match that would only encourage the problem? Instead when I took the dog out of the holding blind, I had him sit, reached down and removed the leash, stuck it in my pocket, said "sit" again, and I walked down the bank to the line, turned and called the dog, and as has been drilled into him since puppy hood he came and took his place at my side. Then I simply held his collar, called for the birds, and we got our title with NO MUD TREATMENT! This may not work for all dogs in all situations, but it was an eye opener to me. We simply removed the opportunity to fight. In no way does this relieve me of the responsibility to train the dog to walk calmly at heel to the line, but it did allow us to pass our test without the dog getting away with bad behaviour.
Interesting replies. It sounds like a lot of it is due to dog's inexperience in testing/new situations. We run into this a lot in the versatile tests, too. So many people don't train in an environment that simulates the test and the dog comes unglued. I ran my latest pup in as many different venues as I could when he was young in order to get him used to the environment. It's very difficult to simulate horses and galleries of people in training.
FWIW, my dogs quickly figure out the difference between hunting, testing, training and just being on a walk.
NAVHDA's heeling test is done on lead (!), but as you know a handler can actually get dinged for a dog *pulling* on the lead. Cost me a Prize 1 once all because the dog reared on its hind legs for about 11 inches.
Meanwhile, NAVHDA's steadiness in the blind (to a fusillade of shots after the handler has left the dog in the blind) is joyfully ridiculous. Who leaves their dog in a duck blind alone? (The handlers whose dogs have trained them to pick up the birds--ba-dum.) What's the point of steadiness in the blind? But altogether it's not a bad little exercise in control.
For retrievers, the dog (and handler) are under judgement once stepping foot out of the blind going toward the line. And the dogs are off lead. The dogs also are anticipating birds going down in sequence, and they are at full ignition the second their derriere drops to the ground. If in fact it ever does drop. And if there is a flyer involved (which ain't often so with HRC nor ever with NAVHDA), it only intensifies. Breaking tests are set up to challenge the shall we say animated retriever.
"Tightly wound" versatile dogs have about six different "series" over the course of a day's NAVHDA or VDD test to work it off--especially with the 30 minutes spent in the bird field. Retrievers come off the truck for a series at a time (and if they succeed get to come off it for a second series and a third later in the day for tests, and *maybe* twice a day in trials). All that desire is pent-up and they live to retrieve, so it's a combustible combination.
Who leaves their dog in a duck blind alone? (The handlers whose dogs have trained them to pick up the birds--ba-dum.) What's the point of steadiness in the blind? MG
scenario- NAHRA field test (Or real life hunting) land series. Judges in chairs, in front of them in a little dip and actual built blind with a dog window so dog can see everything. Handler and dog sit in blind and signal readiness. Judges start calling (Goose calls) and then stop. a string is attached to the closest goose decoy. Judges pull string and decoy falls over. The test happens as - Handler leaves the dog on a sit in the blind and goes out to stand up the decoy that the "wind" blew over. As soon as handler touches the fallen decoy the calling resumes from judges and then field and the marks go down. Dog stays in blind (You hope) and handler sends from the fallen decoy. Ken Bora
The suggestion of leaving your dog in a sit/stay and calling him to you at the line is a great tool. However, be prepared that some judges will tell you that part of the test is from the holding blind to the line as is part of your trainablity score. This is more in the sr and Master stakes.
And to respond to the orginal post, I have seen several OTCH ( obedience trail Champions) come unglued walking to the line in a Master/finished test. So even though they know how to act some times the excitment is just more than they can take. But ain't it great watching these dogs kick dirt, when they leave the line!
the part you're not getting is that there was an opening in the bottom center of the blind so that the dog could see all the birds in the air and as they fell. it was a triple mark....
i ran a variation of this in a NAHRA test where you had to paddle out to a flipped duck decoy.
it's good to test the remote send ability occasionally.-paul
You will rarely see a good pro or experienced am being dragged to the line by a young dog because they train for it, usually don't run dogs that aren't REALLY ready and don't allow it to continue if the dog starts to behave that way at a test.
Once you have taken your unprepared puppy to a test, allowed it to wreck the holding blinds, drag you to the line hacking and coughing, and then get the reward of picking up birds, you have just created a test-wise dog.
In an exciting situation, most dogs (that have actually been trained to heel) will heel much better off lead than on because they can't use the lead to "cheat". With no lead there, they are forced to take responsibility for remaining aware of your location. Of course, many will try to compensate by leaning into you so that they don't have to pay attention, but that is easily corrected if not allowed to become habit.
I think taking the leash off is bad advise. If the dog heals better off leash than on it's because he was trained that way. At tests or trials you must use a leash part of the time. Instead of taking the leash off because the dog behaves better train the dog to behave properly with the leash on!
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