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Thread: Does anybody else dislike T and TT????

  1. #11
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    You guys are phenomenal. I almost think some of you have been looking over my shoulder

    I am printing this entire thread and attaching it to the front of my log book. Along with rereading the Lardy articles, I plan to go over this thread before each session.

    Thank heavens we got to go out and set up marks today. I dont think my dog could tolerate one more day of my fumbling around in the yard.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  2. #12
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    LOTS of GREAT stuff in /Paul's post. Especially #10.

    I think a lot of people dwell on the TT too long trying to get it perfect. They have good intentions and want to be "thorough", but "thorough" and "perfect" are not the same.

    Staying on this drill too long will only bore your dog and sour the attitude. Keep it moving, git-'er-done, and move on. Accomplish the primary purpose and you can finesse the fine points as you move along.

    Keep it fun. Remember, YOU know where this whole plan is going so it makes sense to you, but your dog doesn't.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  3. #13
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    5. Stop viewing this as a failure. This is your dog learning
    The above is from Paul's post and is pure gold.

    FF, FTP, and the double T is where disciplined handling retrievers are made. It's not a smooth path but one filled with lots of speed bumps.

    Patience and perserverance will get you and your dog through.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  4. #14
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    I have to update. Since the improvement in weather, and me utilizing all the advice I got here, I think we have turned the corner on the T drill. This morning I got nice straight runs on back to the pile, stopped a few times on the way in and out, and got overs that were followed by a return to the back pile. Dog was happy, I was happy. My natural tendency is to say OK we are done, but do I need to repeat a few more days, weeks, etc? Just for funsies, tonite I did two "site blinds". Dog saw me toss the dummy down at about 150 yds, I walked back and heeled the dog around for a while. Returned to the line, sent and he answered one whistle perfectly on the first one and took a small over to pick up the dummy. The second one he lined. (as usual at warp speed). Do I go back to T for a few more days to reinforce, or move ahead?
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  5. #15
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    An extremely helpful post Gun_dog. And, a special thanks for:

    Is the dog disobeying or confused?
    Dogs, hell! I spend a good bit of my time confused....

  6. #16
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    Great question and feed back. These are examples I have utilized.

    I like to toggle my position ( and or move to pile and leave pile at receiving). Mix it up, Pep' em up, I try not to stand in cement, movement /gesture possible walking cast.

    As for the intersection, basic I stop two to three feet short and position myself about two feet offsett to over pile ( setting them up for success and not to incourage angle in over etc.) For little more advance and fine whistle work I stop the dog three to four feet deep and working on: hesitation cast, vocal, and tweet tweet over etc..

    Force is primarliy omitted on land, for me. I have encountered and observed many training and handling tendencies on foce to pile and T work resulting in oor momenteum ,popping, no go's , spinning on send or stopping ,and 1/4 or 1/2 turns, no looks, etc..

    I like giving success in good challenging doses.


    Patrick

  7. #17
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    ......... This morning I got nice straight runs on back to the pile, stopped a few times on the way in and out, and got overs that were followed by a return to the back pile. Dog was happy, I was happy. My natural tendency is to say OK we are done, but do I need to repeat a few more days, weeks, etc? .........
    It's very hard to "read a dog" on the internet; you have to do that yourself.

    But from your description, I would give it a rest for a day, do something different to break up the routine and then come back the next day for a proofing. Run just a SHORT session and see if he retained it all.

    Then maybe give him another day or 2 away from it and then come back and check him out again. Do everything you can to make it successful. If that goes OK, I would say you're done.

    Meantime, run some more of those sight blinds. Sometimes they learn from just letting it "soak in".

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Carol, heres my opinion. I typically do a session every day with the dog. This is a teaching drill where skills are taught through repetition. These dogs can handle at least one session a day and in my experience they make the most progress by consistent sessions daily for 7-10 days. If by day 10 I'm seeing a 80% success rate in the handling portion and good response to the back command with periodic force I move to pattern field where we take the taught skills and put them into a controlled field situation.

    My pattern fields is flat, short grass and mostly featureless. The blinds have good separation and vary in length. (see diagram) I teach 1 leg each day, and repeat the other legs as I go along. By day 4 the dog is picking up 2 bumpers at each leg. They are rough at first, but like T pattern this is teaching. Not a lot of corrections for casting mistakes, use attrition. Don't worry if they line them, again this is about working with you has a handler and taking the casts. Again I run these for 7-10 days. Typically after this the dog is working with me well enough to move to true cold blinds, which in line with the program does not have a lot of casting corrections, but mostly attrition.




    /Paul
    Last edited by Gun_Dog2002; 09-22-2008 at 12:18 PM.
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  9. #19
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Force is primarliy omitted on land, for me. I have encountered and observed many training and handling tendencies on foce to pile and T work resulting in oor momenteum ,popping, no go's , spinning on send or stopping ,and 1/4 or 1/2 turns, no looks, etc..
    I added the bold.

    To me these are the very issues you do FTP, and the double T to face. By not forcing on FTP and the double T where do you address the flaring, no goes, popping, spinning, quiting etc? I like to get these out in the open and deal with them here in yardwork so they don't come back and bite me in the butt later on in training out in the field. If they do come up in the field you have tools you installed in the double T to get you out of trouble.

    The poor momentum that FTP and the double T causes goes away when the dog has a good handle on what is happening. The well forced dog won't look like it's been forced at all.
    Last edited by Howard N; 11-01-2007 at 01:10 AM.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I added the bold.

    To me these are the very issues you do FTP, and the double T to face. By not forcing on FTP and the double T where do you address the flaring, no goes, popping, spinning, quiting etc? I like to get these out in the open and deal with them here in yardwork so they don't come back and bite me in the butt later on in training out in the field. If they do come up in the field you have tools you installed in the double T to get you out of trouble.

    The poor momentum that FTP and the double T causes goes away when the dog has a good handle on what is happening. The well forced dog won't look like it's been forced at all.
    I agree Howard. IMHO the momentum problems, popping, spinning etc come when too much physical pressure is applied. Force is not physical its mental. As an extreme example, if you do force to pile and put your TT collar on a high 6, then perform the process perfectly, it will create all these problems even though your doing everything correctly. In probably 90% of the young dogs that I work with, most of them coming off the FF table into walking fetch will have sufficient physical pressure on a TT #2 high, to perform the function. Moving into FTP that typically remains the same and as the couple of weeks go by they will get an "occasional" #3 or #4 to help expose them to the more physical pressure. This helps them learn/understand how to handle the higher pressure. Most of their physical force though is with a high #2 or low/medium #3. People forget that T is also about handling the physical collar pressure properly. Two things come to mind on this topic;

    1. Force is applied correctly is more mental then physical - Don Remein
    2. All dogs are not created equal. Use only enough physical force to elicit a behavioral change in the dog. If the dog responds to a #2 properly, then why use more? - Mike Lardy.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

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