Cigarring / Off center hold ???

[L J Monlezun]

I have a 7 month old that is going through basics via the Evan Graham SMART FETCH basics program. She has been through each step according to the books and videos and is currently in the late stages of FTP. She has come through very well so far but her hold has started to deteriorate. She's starting to cigar hold the bumpers or hold them by the string or off to one side of the bumper instead of holding it firmly in the middle of the bumper. I have switched to using bumpers with no strings and gone back and done several sessions of hold and walking hold with some improvement. Each time she cigars the bumper or holds it incorrectly ( not in the middle ) I correct the position of the bumper in her mouth and re-command "fetch - hold." She has an otherwise quite mouth and has good momentum towards the bumpers when commanded fetch. The hold is my only concern.

My question is should I continue to correct the position of the bumper in her mouth or should I go back all the way to hold and start FF over again????

[Bob Gutermuth]

Try revisiting FF briefly with a force buck or an obedience dumbell instead of a bumper. Lion Country and others sell these handy objects which are constructed so as to make the dog want to hold the center instead of trying for a cigar or butchers hold.

[caglatz]

I had the same problem with my pup last summer when he went through FF. Note its not an issue with birds, because how do you cigar a bird? - just with the small bumpers (2-inch). We got over that through working extensively on HOLD during FF and by repositioning the bumper repeatedly. Whenever the pup cigarred the bumper I would say "NO" and the reposition followed by "HOLD". He eventually got the idea. Just keep your standards high and he will eventually learn. Some tricks that had helped also were switching to bigger 3" bumpers. They are heavier and are harder to cigar. I also used some DFTs - but with patience you can get him to hold the bumper in the middle. Good luck.

[jburn34]

First off, I'm not a pro...so take it for what it's worth. I had the same problems with my dog. He was solid on hold, but when picking up a dummy when forced or on a 'trained' retrieve he cigared it. Usually didn't do it on fun bumpers. I decided it was an attitude/laziness issue. I will tell you from the Danny Farmer video it appears they are much more concerned about the dog flying to the bumper than a perfect hold, which makes sense. Here are a couple of articles I found that really really helped me correct the problem with my pup:

http://www.northernflight.com/cigaring.htm

http://www.kwicklabs.com/Kwick%20Bumpers.htm

[FowlDawgs]

My 7 month old had that issue and after asking about "fixing" that issue on a different thread I just left her alone and now she's good. But, I wasn't too worried about it for the most part. My 3 year old blackie did the same cigar thing and I didnt do anything to him just let him be and he now holds them right. I think they'd grow out of it, but who knows. My choco hunny is also now at a top grade trainer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Cory

[southerncomfortretrievers]

gundogsonline.com has a ff bumper to teach center hold for 9.95 under the plactic bumpers section

[Jason E.]

Doesnt bother me as long as they are good with ducks.

[Audrey and Bruce Coleman]

The first thing I would do is make sure the pup is not having any problems in it's mouth. All the teeth should be in and the pup shouldn't have any sores or any other mouth problems. If you use bumpers without strings the problem should self eliminate. It is much harder holding a bumper by the end than by holding the middle. I would do a force fetch and make the pup carry it around for a while. If it drops the bumper make it pick it up any way it wants as long as it picks it up. It will figure out soon enough that it is easier to pick it up the right. Give the pup a chance to solve the problem.

[pupaloo]

Note its not an issue with birds, because how do you cigar a bird?

Here's how! Never drops one, though...

[Evan]

She has an otherwise quite mouth and has good momentum towards the bumpers when commanded fetch. The hold is my only concern.

My question is should I continue to correct the position of the bumper in her mouth or should I go back all the way to hold and start FF over again????

As the coursework suggests, this is something you consistently correct. With some dogs it takes longer than others. When you correct it make sure you use some degree of corrective pressure - a price for poor effort. Gradually increase pressure in corrections until a change in behavior is attained.

In addition, there are (as suggested) some adjucts to your training efforts that will help a bit. This idea from Kwick Labs is a nice one, but there are others.



Feel free to email me if you have further questions at rushcreekpress@aol.com .

Evan