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Actual Training Question - Hunt in area of the fall??

5K views 50 replies 17 participants last post by  Aussie 
#1 ·
I have a 4 YO BLM that is an INCREDIBLE marking dog. But as seems to happen, his handling and "hunting" are not really strong. Unless he steps on the bird, he won't hardly "hunt" for it. He seems look for a few seconds and then starts heading back. Sometimes when he makes it back to me, I will re-heel him, command MARK, and then send him again. About 80% of the time he picks it up the second time. Obviously, I can't do this during a test.

We have been working some "tower hunts" and he has started "hunting the area" better, but how do I train to reinforce it?? I don't think he knows what his nose is for....

Further background: His handling is AWFUL. He will sit on the whistle but thats about it. He is a hard charging field trial type, runs the straightest lines in the world (and at 100 mph). The dog was given to me when he was around a year old. A hunter had him and couldn't "control" him and thought he needed a good home. I took him in with the intentions of working him through OB and then making him a pet for the girls next door (12 and 13 at the time). Long story short, I gave him to the girls, they kept him for 6 months, and then he came back to me. So I wound up with a 18 month old hyper lab that has been OB trained only. Since then i've been playing catch up. Once I put him on marking drills, he has really become more trainable and attentive and he LOVES the game, so I decided to keep him. Besides that he is a gorgeous dog.
 
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#2 ·
get some live pigeons and pull flight feathers so it can't fly, and throw them into cover. I'd bet that would get him hunting harder and sticking with it to get that higher reward bird.
 
#4 · (Edited)
You have the dog retrieve the pigeon, not a bumper. I don't understand what you're getting at with the 10 yard circle thing.

If your dog hasn't retrieved birds yet, release and let him chase a cliped wing pigeon first to get him charged up on them. Then do some short puppy type retrieves with him. Make sure you have a check chord on him in case you need to coax him back to you with the bird.
 
#5 ·
dirt clod drill (cow pie drill) would probably help too..

Also think using real birds (live or dead) on all marks for a while will help too.....give him a reason to stay there....

Juli
 
#6 ·
Salt the AOF with several bumpers, so that he is going to find a bumper no matter what. You want him to be successfull and return with a bumper. Hopefully after several sucessfull trips/days, he will stick with a hunt and dig it out
 
#7 ·
That would also be a good idea. I've recommended pigeons because my pro suggested this to me when my 20 month old was around 5 months old, and it worked like gangbusters. At any rate, you need to build the success rate and the confidence. Do you have your throwers do a hey hey, maybe toss another bumper if the dog tries to leave the area?

Handling or helping by you, the handler, is counter productive.
 
#8 ·
I second dirt clod drill. There's more than one way to do this drill. One doesn't involve handling. Also if the handling is awful, put him back through the yard. I'm sure you were going to do that but I'd thought I'd mention it. That way if in the future he comes roaring back without a bird you have a few more tools.

Good Luck,

Angie
 
#9 ·
Bob, I would suggest two things.

1. Gunner help. Talk with your throwers about being ready to help when you signal. With this dog I might be quicker to call for help from the gunners. Never let the dog return to the line without a bird, get the gunners helping quicker. With that being said, lets talk about how to help.

Help - Dogs need to "own" the job of marking. We want to instill in them that it is their job to mark the bird, or stay in there and dig it out. We do that by having a gunners who do as little to help the dog as is necessary to keep them in the area. So initially they might yell "hey hey" until the dog comes back to the area of the fall and then quit helping. Once the dog is back there, let him hunt. I personally don't like my gunners to walk out to the bird unless it is a last resort. I would almost prefer that if the dog gives up his hunt 2 or 3 times to have them just rethrow the bird for the dog so he see's it while in the area. I want that dog to know that the bird is there, and it most likely came from the gunner. Its about building confidence that their is a bird there.

2. Don't handle. Handling on marks can be the kiss of death in building confidence in the dog. Its about the hardest thing a handler can do though. Our first response is to help, yet that only destroys confidence in the dog to dig out the bird. The only time to handle on marks is to overcome the dog caving into a factor. Based on what you've said so far, I would not be worrying about this, but rather simplifying the marks by reducing the factors and building confidence to stick it out and find the bird.

As for the handling portion. I would back this dog up to yard OB, walking FF, T pattern etc to build handling skills in the dog. I hope some of this helps...

/Paul

ps. A dirt clod drill might be an option for this dog as well but I get the feeling that this dog is "young" in training so I might hold off on this until the dog has more experience and education overall.
 
#15 ·
I'm not completely opposed to it and I have done it with young dogs. I just seem to tend to go with the method I posted first and use the dirt clod as a "last" resort or with older dogs. Course I try and keep an open mind for each dog and work to live by the motto "there are no absolutes in dog training" so there is a good chance that tomorrow I'll go right to it with a young dog because thats is the right thing to do. Welcome to internet dog training.....it will make a lier out of all of us....:)

/Paul
 
#14 ·
As Okvet said you need a bird boy for dirt clod drill. How do you manage when training on own and using bumper boys? I have tried firing another bumper boy in the past but all that did was encourage the dog to give up and wait! So have had to handle which I realise is not the right thing to do. Any suggestions as in trying to increase difficulty of marks it becomes a real issue?
 
#19 ·
From a previous post by Angie that explains it well:

There's 2 ways to do it for dogs of all ages. For dogs that don't handle... Throw a simple mark with light cover. Dog picks it up. BB repeats the throw with a dirt clod, corn cob, stone, whatever. Dog hunts and hunts. BB keeps the dog in the fall area and hunting. Once the handler is satisfied with the hunt the BB tosses out the bird when the dog isn't looking.

For dogs that handle: Set-up a double. Dog picks up go bird. While the dog does that, BB runs out and picks up memory bird. Send dog for memory bird. If dog pops, switch's or tries to leave the fall area they are forced back into the fall area with the collar. If the dog pops, cast with a collar force. Dog hunts until the handler is satisfied and then he signals to the BB to toss the bird back out when the dog isn't looking.
 
#18 ·
The only reason I didn't think about the dirt clod drill was the fact that DuckTruck said that if his dog doesn't find the bumper right away it would give up and start returning to the handler. I would think that the dirt clod drill would be best for a dog that bails out early and expands it's hunt. That's why I was suggesting a hey hey from the thrower, or something to get the dog excited about staying in the fall area.
 
#21 ·
for some reason, I was under the assumption that he has a young dog and was training by himself.

If he has a bb, the bb help would be great.

It also sounds like his dog doesn't have a lot of hunt in it? I was thinking that salting the area would build some confidence and hopefully some drive and hunt would follow?
 
#22 ·
Correct. Most of the time I train alone. I don't think its an issue of the dog "not having hunt" in it. He has enough desire for several dogs, he just hasn't been taught how to hunt yet.

What about using the advanced sound on Bumper Boy? That should have a similar effect as a real live bird boy, shouldn't it?
 
#25 ·
just thought I interject a funny story. was once setting up the dirt clod drill in an old pastured field without any existing dirt clods. Took the poop shovel out of the truck and dug out a divit of earth to throw. Clod must have gotten some scent from shovel. dog needing drill was/is a classic turd burglar. had bird boy throw dirt. dog goes to area of fall, put on a hunt. instead of giving up and leaving area of fall she brings back the clod of dirt. I kid you not.
 
#27 ·
just thought I interject a funny story. was once setting up the dirt clod drill in an old pastured field without any existing dirt clods. Took the poop shovel out of the truck and dug out a divit of earth to throw. Clod must have gotten some scent from shovel. dog needing drill was/is a classic turd burglar. had bird boy throw dirt. dog goes to area of fall, put on a hunt. instead of giving up and leaving area of fall she brings back the clod of dirt. I kid you not
I believe it,,, but any dog of mine that brought back a dirt clod would know they had made a grave mistake.

Angie
 
#30 ·
I agree with Paul when he says never let the dog come back to the line without the bird or bumper. I have a very nice 9 month old female that I have created this problem by doing this. One time she came back to me and I was very surprised that she would line back up on the mark and go hard like the mark just went down so I did it a few times and now have a problems to fix. If she doesnt find it right away she comes back for help:rolleyes:
 
#31 ·
DuckTruck, do yourself a favor, get a dictionary and look up the word INCREDIBLE, I don't think your dog is an INCREDIBLE marker from what you said, Incredible markers pin the bird the first time, don't come back until they have a bird in their mouth, usually after a very short hunt.
 
#32 ·
Nice second post RickyBobby.....to me if a dog CONSISTANTLY (80%) picks up single marks at 450+ that is pretty incredible. He usually has the trouble with the 3rd bird in a triple.

Thanks for your outstanding training advise......go back to your movie.....
 
#34 · (Edited)
Well here is my advice, cuz that is the correct spelling. Quit doing 450 yard marks I mean what are you trying to prove? Is there some new competition that sees who can find the farthest mark, kinda a like that dog jumping off the dock contest, they even have that one that jumps the highest. Whatever flips your race car I guess, Hey if you want to see incredible marking dogs come train with me and my two dogs, walker and texas ranger, over 100 derby points between them and they can count to three.

we would like to thank our sponsers for paying all our entry fees over the last 6 months, taco bell, KFC, and the delicious flavor of mountain mystic blueberry by power ade!
 
#36 ·
First off, tower shoots will really screw up a dog mentally, all those birds on the ground at once. Been there done that been picking up tower shoots for 18+ years. This dog is used to a quick score and return and doesn't know quite what to do when it doesn't find a bird on the first cast. First off, is this dog throughly force fetched? all the way from ear pinch to FTP? If not that is where I would start. Those hot fresh shot tower shoot birds are a lot more exciting than a cold frozen bird or a plastic bumper. FF will do a lot to convice him to pick up those old bumpers when he really wants hot meat. I would go back to my original suggestion after finishing FF(if the dog is not thru it yet) and salt the area with big white bumpers. Then with the BB and the sound effect you can keep the dog in the area until he finds a bumper, whether one that was shot or planted.
 
#44 ·
Although wingers are sometimes a necessity, I hate using them.
 
#41 ·
Heres the plan to date....

1. Start off with the "peppered" area on a fairly easy mark; when that breaks down
2. Use the real live bird boy to keep the dog in the area.

Sometimes I wonder if I should even post questions or just PM certain folks on the board. Some folks wanna help, some folks wanna stir up crap to post their threadcount....
 
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