not typical FF question

[precisionlabradors]

having used the search function and not wanting to screen every question about FF, i am going to throw this out there. if it is beating a dead horse, please don't get miffed. haha.

i have FF'd around a dozen dogs using evan graham's techniques, but have been trying to teach, teach, teach and back up the teaching with pressure more than force to teach. i am working with a 7 month old male out of the jazztime line that is real smart and seems to get the fetch concept very well on just the second day of pinch. he also understands that by doing what he is commanded turns off the pressure.

something i have been doing with him is beginning a session with 4-5 consecutive pinch fetches, then giving him the command without the pinch alternating every other time with a pinch. he gets it and fetches it every time.

so my question is this-do i need to be pinching him every time? if i don't will it just show him that he can do it without pressure and run the risk of him seeing the pressure as punishment or rejecting the pressure and melting? when i think about the pressure concept, i think about lardy teaching collar conditioning and alternating a nick every other time. can i do this with the ear pinch, or can i give him the command without the pressure without running the risk of negative side effects teaching him the pressure is option?
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[born2retrieve]

I start letting up on the pressure after they are getting the drill. I think it is a good reward for the dog to get the drill with out pressure.

[Evan]

can i do this with the ear pinch, or can i give him the command without the pressure without running the risk of negative side effects teaching him the pressure is option?

Of course you get to a point at which you won't add pressure to each verbal command. But be sure this bright little guy isn't just beating pressure, and missing out on important pressure conditioning.

An easy way to tell is to conduct a session using restraint, as the text and DVD describe. Do you have the DVD?

Evan

[precisionlabradors]

Of course you get to a point at which you won't add pressure to each verbal command. But be sure this bright little guy isn't just beating pressure, and missing out on important pressure conditioning.

An easy way to tell is to conduct a session using restraint, as the text and DVD describe. Do you have the DVD?

Evan

i don't, just the book.
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[Zoe's next]

i don't, just the book.

well you obviously need to buy the DVD, just $24.99 on the web site


Look, it's called FORCE fetch, not just fetch. The idea is not just to teach them the fetch command, it is to FORCE them to comply with a command and to teach them that doing so removes the pressure. I presume you know all that, but don't fool yourself into "softly" going through FF. IMO, it's gotta come down to that do-it-or-else moment for the dog and you gotta win that one. Until you get there, the dog may understand the fetch command, but he does not understand the principles of force and pressure.

Pinch every other, every third, every time (my preference)--who cares. Read the dog and do every drilll and every part of a drill with something in mind that you want to accomplish.

[FetchExpress]

I would add that force fetch isnt just about the fetch. It is about the ability to stay focused on the command in spite of the pressure or the chaos around him. If he is restrained by a leash does he want to fight the pressure of the leash to get to the bumper? Sometimes I will have somebody else in the room just moving around .....does he stay focused on the task of fetching?

Just my 2 cents.

[A_Fever]

It is called conditioning for a reason. "Modifying the behavior" goes beyond your dog understanding the concept. It requires repetition. Retrievers love to retrieve, so if they understand what you want, and do it when you ask them, why FF at all? See the 20,000 "Why FF" threads to answer that question. If you are going to do it, do it right.

[Snicklefritz]

i have FF'd around a dozen dogs using evan graham's techniques, but have been trying to teach, teach, teach and back up the teaching with pressure more than force to teach. i am working with a 7 month old male out of the jazztime line that is real smart and seems to get the fetch concept very well on just the second day of pinch. he also understands that by doing what he is commanded turns off the pressure.

So, after around a dozen dogs you're questioning the reasons behind what you've been doing. Good for you! Not all dogs are the same, and in spite of what the members of the Holy Mary Mother of Force Fetch church would say, it may be you're on the right track with this dog.

[Zoe's next]

So, after around a dozen dogs you're questioning the reasons behind what you've been doing. Good for you! Not all dogs are the same, and in spite of what the members of the Holy Mary Mother of Force Fetch church would say, it may be you're on the right track with this dog.

I had a great dog that I didn't FF. Never had a refusal and she will probably be my best ever dog forever. That said, FF wouldn't have hurt her and she was a rare specimen in that her desire to please over-rode anything else. I agree with you that not all dogs need a force/pressure program, but those who don't and will do swim-by, angled water entries, not cheat banks, etc. are rare indeed.

MHO.

[Snicklefritz]

I had a great dog that I didn't FF. Never had a refusal and she will probably be my best ever dog forever. That said, FF wouldn't have hurt her and she was a rare specimen in that her desire to please over-rode anything else. I agree with you that not all dogs need a force/pressure program, but those who don't and will do swim-by, angled water entries, not cheat banks, etc. are rare indeed.

Well said, Zoe. Although, I question whether FF has anything to do with cheating, swim-by and angled water entries. IMHO, that needs some explanation.

All that being said, dogs like you have described might be less rare than we think. And, there might be more out there that are being hidden from us by using FF without finding out first. So, we'll never know just how good they are.

I just think we should take what the dog will give us first, and then see what else we need to do.

My 2cents worth.