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Thread: "no" confusion on blinds

  1. #1
    Senior Member K92line's Avatar
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    Default "no" confusion on blinds

    In a recent discussions of the rules, is was pointed out that "there is no confusion on blinds" If you say "back" (or whatever) on a blind, and your dog sits there, that is a "no go" and grounds for elimination.

    However, what if the send is a remote? Your dog is out in front of you, you give the back cast and they sit there, you repeat cast and they go.

    From a judging perspective is that a "no go" or is it a "cast refusal" and therefore not grounds for elimination, but merely a minor fault?

    Thanks in advance for your input.

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    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    It's still a no-go.

    A cast refusal if if the dog takes the wrong cast. It goes, just not the correct way.

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    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Nancy

    I agree with Doug

    Like the Ad says:

    Gotta go, Gotta go, right now, right now

    Don't go, then GONE
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    Senior Member JKL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K92line View Post
    In a recent discussions of the rules, is was pointed out that "there is no confusion on blinds" If you say "back" (or whatever) on a blind, and your dog sits there, that is a "no go" and grounds for elimination.

    However, what if the send is a remote? Your dog is out in front of you, you give the back cast and they sit there, you repeat cast and they go.

    From a judging perspective is that a "no go" or is it a "cast refusal" and therefore not grounds for elimination, but merely a minor fault?

    Thanks in advance for your input.
    Great question Nancy. We saw it a few weekends ago, saw some re-casts and I wasnt sure how to deal with it, my gut said it was a no-go and demanded elimination but after discussion in the gallery, consensus was to do nothing, allow the recast. Hmmm.......

    Kim

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    Senior Member K92line's Avatar
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    I am with you all so far, you are running a blind, dog is out in the field 100 yds or so, you give a left angle back and it sticks on the cast (doesn't move) you give the same cast again and the dog goes. In my mind I see that is not the same as a "no go" but maybe they didn't see the cast or there was something behind me. Once they have left the line, even if sent remotely, they have left the line and the "no go" issue is gone.

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    Senior Member Bud's Avatar
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    Nancy I believe that Doug and Ted said that it is a "no-go", different than your explanation.
    It's a good question, I would have considered it a re-cast until Doug's interpretation, and favored it being a no-go. But then I take in consideration what you say about not seeing the cast or having something behind you, and think that I would agree with you in that it may not necessarily be a no-go and a re-cast should be allowed.
    Terry "Bud" Cunningham
    Kankakee River HRC

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    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    It's still a no-go.

    A cast refusal if if the dog takes the wrong cast. It goes, just not the correct way.

    hmmmmm... so, if a handler lines up a dog for a blind retrieve and sends from it's side, (not a remote send) and instead of taking a perfect line to the blind it is off a slight degree. The handler stops the dog just a few yards away and gives a literal cast, slight angle back. and the dog takes it. As a judge do you start your sketch of that blind with a CR = cast refusal?
    The dog went, but not the absolute correct way. Just wondering.
    KNB
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    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    The issue in question involves the INITIAL cast, not just "any" cast.

    Regardless of where it's from, side or remote, if the dog does not "go" on the initial cast, it's a no-go. It is what it is. Both Doug and Ted are correct.

    Ken, any cast that occurs as "up close" as you referred probably happened due to the dog being "off line." I'd note "PIL" ("poor initial line") and keep scoring the blind. From the situation you described, sounds like the dog took the corrective cast just fine. The "PIL" is a cast refusal of sorts, but certainly not as egregious as a "no go." Just score it as such and move on.

    IMHO, of course.

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    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K92line View Post
    I am with you all so far, you are running a blind, dog is out in the field 100 yds or so, you give a left angle back and it sticks on the cast (doesn't move) you give the same cast again and the dog goes. In my mind I see that is not the same as a "no go" but maybe they didn't see the cast or there was something behind me. Once they have left the line, even if sent remotely, they have left the line and the "no go" issue is gone.
    All no-goes are not the same.

    Yes, if not for the initial cast on a blind, it wouldn't be an automatic failure. Obviously, when the dog is in the field, visability may be an issue. I'll note what I see in my notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    hmmmmm... so, if a handler lines up a dog for a blind retrieve and sends from it's side, (not a remote send) and instead of taking a perfect line to the blind it is off a slight degree. The handler stops the dog just a few yards away and gives a literal cast, slight angle back. and the dog takes it. As a judge do you start your sketch of that blind with a CR = cast refusal?
    The dog went, but not the absolute correct way. Just wondering.
    KNB
    You're trying too hard.

    I'm confused by your use of "slight" and "perfect". But, I would probably just note where the dog was stopped and cast, nothing more. If the initial line was poor, I will write PIL on my notes.

    HRC looks at no-goes on blinds differently.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Chapter 4 Section 7. In marked retrieves, if a dog, after having been sent to retrieve, (1) returns to its handler before finding the bird, with or without having been called in, except in those cases of confusion of the dog as to
    whether it was really ordered to retrieve; (2) stops its hunt; or (3) fails to pick the bird up, actually leaving it after finding it, it shall be sufficient cause, unless there exist in the opinion of the Judges valid mitigating circumstances, to grade the dog 0 in Marking or Perseverance.

    A recast occurs when a dog makes a start toward a marked fall, but stops within a short distance of the line (the distance is usually limited to 15 feet, and should be agreed upon between the Judges) and returns or is
    recalled to the handler. The dog is then sent to retrieve again. This is most often attributed to confusion on the part of the dog as to whether it was sent to retrieve the first time. It is not considered a recast when a dog goes to the area of the fall, fails to find the bird and returns (or is recalled) to the handler. This shall be evaluated as a lack of perseverance and a score of 0 will be required.
    NOTE* There is no allowance for confusion on blind retrieves.
    The second paragraph in the HT guidelines is the key paragraph here. Notice is describes a recast which only applies to a mark and not a blind. can someone find the section of the guidelines that discuss "no-go's" on a blind so we can clarify the situation.

    /Paul

    /Paul
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