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basic Handler Technique ?

3K views 17 replies 11 participants last post by  MooseGooser 
#1 · (Edited)
Basic Handler Technique ?

Been running Hrc for some time now.

I've grown comfortable with talking to the dog as the marks are shown, commanding "here" and "heel" to get the dog to swing with the gun.


I'm getting ready to run some AKC tests, and wonder about peoples techniques at the line.

In a Senior test. When you take the dog to the line, do you position the dog to split the angle of the double, "sit" the dog, then call for the birds, and NOT let the dog move, OR

Do you position the dog in the direction of the first mark of the double, then silently have him turn at heel with you as the go bird is shown?

What about a multiple in master?
Does your dog "sit" in 1 position and just turn its head to mark,, or does it silently "heel" or "here" to you as you turn?

Can you tap your leg or snap your fingers to get them to turn?

Thanks Gooser
 
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#2 ·
I'm getting ready to run some AKC tests, and wonder about peoples techniques at the line.

In a Senior test. When you take the dog to the line, do you position the dog to split the angle of the double, "sit" the dog, then call for the birds, and NOT let the dog move, OR

Do you position the dog in the direction of the first mark of the double, then silently have him turn at heel with you as the go bird is shown?
Keep in mind that the AKC walk up is very different from a HRC walk up in that the AKC walk up is usually part of the double or triple. The judges will instruct you to walk in a particular direction or toward a particular spot and the test will begin while you are in motion. In this instance you don't have as much control over where your dog is positioned in terms of facing a particular gun station or whatever. I know that conventional wisdom is to heel the dog on the right if the go bird is to be thrown to the right and heel on the left if the go bird is to be thrown from right to left, but if I was worried about my dog seeing the second mark I would heel him on the side of the second mark so that I could use my body language to "push" his attention toward the second mark instead of trying to "pull" his attention toward it. If you run HRC then your dog probably swings with the gun. That is a great tool for focusing the dog's attention IMO. Shoulder the gun, aim at the marks and use it to focus his attention IMO.

In my experience, there is a greater delay between marks and more noise from the gun station (duck calls and shotgun blasts) in AKC tests than in HRC tests and therefore there are fewer problems with dogs simply not seeing the marks in AKC.

Can you tap your leg or snap your fingers to get them to turn?
I'm pretty sure that is not allowed, but I'm not a judge. I don't suggest trying it unless you can get a difinitive answer that it is OK.

Good luck.
 
#3 ·
MG, I would spend some time getting the dog to move with your leg. Tapping your leg and such things are looked down on. As for how to line your dog up, that is a bit tricky and depends on the dog and the test. Your not allowed to point out the holding blinds in AKC HT's but you can bet that dog will learn where the flyer station is. I like to bring the dog out of the holding blind so he has the best chance to see what I believe the hardest mark will be for him so he looks and creates the picture the most. Some dogs I try and point them at another station vs the flyer station. Some dogs I just go up to the bucket, sit down and pray. You just never know.

/Paul
 
#4 ·
What?!?!?!?! So do you sit on a bucket in AKC SH? This one blindsided me. Have never done that except at a "started" at HRC . I might be in trouble here, our first SH is next weekend.
 
#5 ·
What?!?!?!?! So do you sit on a bucket in AKC SH? This one blindsided me. Have never done that except at a "started" at HRC . I might be in trouble here, our first SH is next weekend.
I have stood, sat and walked up. Even had a walk up honor once. If the judge can think it you can do it.
Gooser try to split the difference lining up the dog, shoot for best view of entire field. After you release your dog for the go bird get your own self lined up for the memory bird. That way when dog comes to heel and gives you the bird, it is perfectly lined up for the memory. Your toes should be pointing directly at the memory bird. Not in buckets please.;-)
KNB
 
#8 ·
Been running Hrc for some time now.

I've grown comfortable with talking to the dog as the marks are shown, commanding "here" and "heel" to get the dog to swing with the gun.


I'm getting ready to run some AKC tests, and wonder about peoples techniques at the line.

In a Senior test. When you take the dog to the line, do you position the dog to split the angle of the double, "sit" the dog, then call for the birds, and NOT let the dog move, OR

Do you position the dog in the direction of the first mark of the double, then silently have him turn at heel with you as the go bird is shown?

What about a multiple in master?
Does your dog "sit" in 1 position and just turn its head to mark,, or does it silently "heel" or "here" to you as you turn?

Can you tap your leg or snap your fingers to get them to turn?
I wouldn't put the dog in position of trying to split the marks, the problem I see is after sending the dog on the Go bird, and now you line yourself up for the memory bird the dog comes back and the "Picture" (angle) is different. Line yourself facing memory birds, you get a duck call and a shot on all marks. It will be natural for you and your dog to turn as a unit to other marks being thrown. As for the tapping your leg or snapping your fingers you can not do this, till all marks are thrown and the judge releases you at the line on "dog" or your running number.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't put the dog in position of trying to split the marks, the problem I see is after sending the dog on the Go bird, and now you line yourself up for the memory bird the dog comes back and the "Picture" (angle) is different. Line yourself facing memory birds, you get a duck call and a shot on all marks.
I disagree, and what if it is a walk up? Your going to have time while that first bird is in the air to get your dog pointed at the memory bird???? Help get the dog in a spot to best view of the entire field/marsh. Then AFTER the dog leaves for the go bird position yourself so your toes are pointed right at the next bird. Dog comes to heel, gives you the bird and BAM is lined right up for the next bird.
KNB
 
#10 ·
Biggo difference here Oh wearer of ugly pants AKA gooser of mooses.

In an AKC event typically the birdstation blows a duck call (or some other attention getting noise) and fires a shot at the top of the arc at the bird. While I have never actually even seen a HRC costume party, I'm told that there are no attention attracting noises from the vicinity of the fall.
It doesn't take very long for a reasonably intelligent dog to figure out gun stations - most of them can even pick out the flyer station.

Call for the birds and then shut up until someone tells you different.

The dog will figure it out regards

Bubba
 
#11 ·
It's never clearly stated above, but the one thing you really shouldn't do is talk to the dog (e.g., say "here" or "heel") after you signal for the birds. That is against the AKC rules. The judges will have to assume you are steadying the dog (regardless of your real intent) and will score it as a controlled break. At Senior a controlled break will cost you a bunch of trainability points. At Master you just failed the test before the marks even went down. If you start using hand gestures or pat your leg the judges will probably look at it the same as a controlled break.

Despite the sound effects in the field, plenty of dogs fail to see marks at AKC tests. IMHO some of the AKC judges are not as keyed in to the visibility of their marks as the HRC judges tend to be. Also, the popper guns in the field can sometimes create echoes from places that confuse dogs if they are not properly aimed. Can you tell these are pet peaves of mine?

I've been pretty successful in having my dogs see marks. There are plenty of things that can be done while staying within the rules. I'll let you in on some things I do. I didn't invent any of what I am going to share here. I have judged a bunch of AKC tests and I have seen plenty of handlers doing the things I am going to tell you. I haven't run any HRC tests in a while, but when I did I used to see handlers there doing many of these same things. Keep in mind though, I am right handed and I only train my dogs to heel on the left side. If you are left-handed or you have a two-sided heeling dog you will have to modify things accordingly.

Before I run I try to get up very close to the line to see things from as close as possible to the working dog's vantage point. You can head off lots of trouble by simply figuring out how to avoid placing a short dog where its sight will be blocked by something tall. You can usually get this view by carefully positioning yourself when the test dog is running or with the permission of the judges at a re-birding break.

I plan my walk from the final holding blind to the line in a way that has the dog walking toward (and looking straight at) the station that will be throwing most critical mark as we approach the line. Usually this will be the toughest memory mark. This may mean going out a different side of the holding blind than might seem most natural or picking my way around some obstacles on the way up to the line.

Once we get to the line, I will try to place the dog very tight to the place I will be standing or sitting. I generally endeavor to get the dog sitting with its spine lined up with an imaginary point that is about one-third of the way from the right-hand bird station to the middle station (in the case of a triple) or to the left-hand station (in the case of a double). Once the dog is sitting in the proper alignment I tell the dog to stay and I will go get the gun. Hopefully, the dog is looking around and checking out things in the field while I am off getting the gun. Once I am back in place I will get in as tight as possible to the dog. If I can sit on a bucket I do that. Alternatively, most judges will allow you to kneel down. That is my next preference. You can really help the dog a lot more by getting down closer to their level

If the first mark is thrown from station on the left, then once I signal for the birds I will lean forward a bit, raise the gun, and swing it to the left to point at the bird. This will put my left elbow right in front of the dog's face. The dog will naturally turn left and see the left-hand bird. I use track the bird through its arc and freeze on the point where it hits the ground. I wait there until I hear the bird boy at the next station start to call.

Then I use my right foot to pull my entire body around to point at the next station. As I rotate to the right, I am dragging my left toe in the dirt for a few inches. It makes a subtle noise that a dog will learn to react to after just a few practice sessions. Again, I track the fall all the way to the ground and freeze. If there is another mark further to the right I repeat the process again.

If the first mark is on the right, I still set up the dog with its spine aligned to a point one third of the way from the right-hand station to the next station to the left. This will generally encourage the dog to look in a direction that will allow it to at very least pick up the motion of the bird coming from the right-hand station by using its peripheral vision. Again, I raise the gun and track the bird through its arc all the way to the ground where I freeze in place. When I hear the next bird boy start to call I lean forward just a bit and use my left foot to rotate body and gun left to the next station, as so forth.

I start working with my dogs on these skills in the yard as follows. I stand next to the dog and hold one bumper in each hand, holding on to the bumper, not the cord. I then practice the foot and body motions I described above. When the dog turns its head to look in the correct direction I toss the bumper from that side to reward that behavior. Now a critical step - you need to freeze and make the dog stare at the bumper for a while before you send it for the retrieve. Otherwise, the dog will turn its head in anticipation of another mark at the slightest hint of movement, real or imagined. If the dog turns away from the bumper you threw, use body language to get the dog looking in the correct direction and then send. After a few days of this you can add the bucket and the gun. I practice with an old single shot 20. Dogs love this drill and they learn to pick up on your movements very quickly. This is a great low pressure way to end a yard session with a young dog.

You asked whether it is desirable to have a dog that pivots in place or one that repositions itself with you to see each mark. I much prefer to train my dogs to plant their butt and not move until I say so. In my experience, the dogs that get to move around tend to get happy feet and start to get into creeping problems. If you work with them enough they will twist themselves like a pretzel to see marks if you use the appropriate body language to communicate that is what they need to do.

At most AKC tests you will handle a fake shotgun. Sometimes you end up with a real gun that is unloaded. I have seen handlers cycle the action of a pump shotgun or dry fire a break open type shotgun. Some judges might have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with that when I judge, because I always verify the gun is truly unloaded and I fix it so it can't readily be loaded during the test. I have even heard a few sly handlers gently tap their ring on the barrel of the gun as a cue for the dog to turn its head.
 
#12 ·
In an AKC test the handler must remain silent after he/she has called for the birds. And it is "unsportsmanlike conduct" to point out the bird stations in advance - and that inclues shouldering the gun and pointing it at the bird station before the bird is thrown. Though some judges may not call you on it I will. If the stations are visible, try to walk to the line to let pup see what's about to go down. If it's a bucket sit I usually sit pup so she is facing the memory bird but without obviously pointing it out. You can slide around, do the "boot shuffle scuffle" but any talking or leg patting may get you bounced. Diffferent game, different rules.

The biggest mistake I see is handlers turning to the next bird before pup has a chance to focus on the last bird down. Take your time. The shot in the field will give pup ample opportuntiy to look for the next throw.
 
#16 ·
Alan Luthy made a great post in number 11 above.

All hunt test handlers and trainers should read it to learn how to help your dog at a test and how to train your dog to accept your help.

Good going Alan!
 
#18 ·
Thank-you all for your suggestions. I appreciate the time you all took to post them.

You especially,, Mr Luthy.!!! Really helpful post you gave to a guy that literally has a defieciancy paying attention to details!!:D Thank-you for your time.

I really would like to be able to position the dog in one place, and make her mover her head ONLY for the marks.

The fact that you cant talk to the dog while the marks are being thrown, and tapping the leg or snapping fingers also sounds like a NO, NO, I think my creepy Amped up monster would be the most succesful with a "SIT" and then leave it at that.

I will let you all know how training goes.

Thanks again!

Now!!,, If I only can muster enough smarts to apply all this!!

Gooser!
 
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