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Got Screwed at HT....Learned something new!

7K views 40 replies 25 participants last post by  Gun_Dog2002 
#1 · (Edited)
Here's the story. Ran my 2yr Lab in Master HT this weekend. Scenario.... Aces first series. Triple land marks with 2 outside blinds just off outside marks. Dog nailed all the marks. Perfect on blinds. Next series.... Land/water with remote sit & honor. Scenario.... 80 yard land mark to the right, 30-40 yard middle mark/duck thrown right at edge of water in the mud were toolies as well meet the water. Left hand shot flyer 15 yards straight into water maybe 10-20 feet in. (Breaking test scenario). After marks, water blind straight over middle bird mark to rock point 20 yards farther out into water. Well, dog pinns all three marks. Reset up for blind. (This is were I might as well had just bent over and said "Ram Me Hard!" I took pictures, but can't figure out how to get them onto this site.) Send dog for blind, stop him right on top of mark area. Now, again so you all understand the scenario, this is were water meets mud/beach with water toolies on right side. These toolies fill pond edge on right hand side. Anyway, next cast, Verbal Left hand back. NOW,my dog is pretty much rock solid on handling. Dog turns around, goes back, but is scaling right when he needs to be scaling left. Whistle stop him quickly. BEING a right hand turning dog, he 5' loops to stop which puts him visibly just behind toolies. Thinking I'm still good, I LHBack cast again. Dog does same thing.Scales left.Quick whistle stop.Dog dies his 5' loop left to sit. Now, Ican barely see hi mbehind toolies. Give him an Left OVER cast. Dog goes left. 15' scales up onto island behind toolies on end of island.Whistle stop. Come in whistle 10' right to bird. Dog comes back. Get a few claps. do my honor. I think I'm good to go. Along with everybody in gallery I talked too. In other words, dog was very solid all day. Well, callbacks come. I don't get a call back! So, I trek down ask judges what's going on. First response was that I didn't challenge the blind and dog wasn't in the water. I said,"are you kidding me? I stopped him right on top of the mark. And he was sitting in water the whole time! How did I not challenge the blind? So there next response was I had whistle refusals. Again I said,How's that ? He took every cast I gave him. 5 casts. Dog took every one of them. Next response was that had this been a "Cheating blind and dog and dog was 5' into shore, he would had been out. I said maybe so, but this is not the case or test and it wasn't as if he ran the shore around the toolies to get the bird. Again they tried to say it was whistle refusals. So I said OK, I'll give you one that Istill don't see were, but your going to drop me for one supposedly whistle refusal, but your going to pass 5 dogs that deliberatly false linded there dogs, after taking pictures up to 15' off line? I said I train to challenge the blind, which I did, NOW your saying it's OK to False line your dog and get to the bird? I told them had I known that I would had done the same thing. But that's not how I train and not what I do! Well nothing mattered. Also judges never discribed what they wanted or didn't want or I would had went about the whole thing completly different if I had known it was OK to false line. Bottom line, always ask if judges don't tell you what they want. Thats the lesson I guess I've learned.Ultimatly, I feel I was robbed!
 
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#2 ·
First of all, I wasn't there.

However, giving a cast and a dog that "scales to the right" when it should be "scaling to the left" is off line. So stopping him, giving him a cast (even if he takes the cast you just give him the wrong direction) and he keeps heading AWAY from the blind, that is considered a cast refusal even if he TOOK the cast! Its about progress to the blind.

If you have to give an over, he's off-line.

However, welcome to competition. Sometimes you don't get ribbons you think you should, and sometimes you get ribbons you don't deserve.

WRL
 
#3 ·
First of all, I wasn't there.

However, giving a cast and a dog that "scales to the right" when it should be "scaling to the left" is off line. So stopping him, giving him a cast (even if he takes the cast you just give him the wrong direction) and he keeps heading AWAY from the blind, that is considered a cast refusal even if he TOOK the cast! Its about progress to the blind.

If you have to give an over, he's off-line.

However, welcome to competition. Sometimes you don't get ribbons you think you should, and sometimes you get ribbons you don't deserve.

WRL
Well said. I've learned (the hard way) that if you get that first scallop/cast refusal the very next cast had better be bigger & more emphatic even if it's more cast than you need. It seems universally that if you get 2 scallops or cast refusals in a row you are DONE.
 
#4 ·
Handlers goggles, much like beer goggles, often make your dog look better from the line to you than to the judges. The opinions of the gallery are worth exactly what you paid for them…nothing. It sounds to me like the dog was off line and not challenging the blind. The blind is judged on the overall quality of the blind, not just weather the dog picks up the bird or not. Having not seen it I cannot really make a call, but most Monday morning HT post have the scenario where the dog was great and the judges stunk. If brought up again on Wednesday it is usually more clear that the judges were right.
Sorry things didn't work out for you this weekend, maybe next...
 
#6 ·
Its easy to fix. Line the blind next time. :)

Ok, in seriousness, the 5' loopy sits are gonna kill ya. BB blinds, get that dog sitting. Interesting thing about dogs with big loopy sits, they tend to be somewhat out of control as well. We did something for fun one time, might be educational so I'll share it. Have your friends videotape you handling your dog in the test. Then before watching it, evaluate how you did. (pays to write it down so your friends can use it later :) Then watch the tape. You'll be surprised. Trust me on that one....

/Paul
 
#7 ·
First of all - I wasn't there-----buuuuuuuuuuuutttttttt I know both of those judges and have for a loooooooonnnnnngggggg time. I can guarantee you that if there was a way to overlook some minor looseness after a "perfect" first series and 2 "perfect" blinds - they would have been just too happy to do just that.

They may not have explained the situation to your satisfaction, but then again they aren't required to justify the scores - or even show them to you until the conclusion of the event.

More to the story regards

Bubba
 
#8 ·
Think about what your saying. Those judges took their time away from family and whatever else they could have been doing to come judge your dog in a test. No judge fails a dog just to fail them. If a judge wanted to fail your dog he could have done it at the start.
 
#9 ·
Yes the outcome was not as you had thought it would be. I don't think it is proper procedure in hunt test to trek on down and ask the judges why you were not called back and then make an effort to convince them their reasons are not correct? I can see telling a judge that this is my first run at this level in HT and I was dropped and I would like to understand why so I will try not to let it happen again. If the answer is one that might be correct learn something from it so it won't happen again. If you don't like the answer just say thank you and make a mental note not to run under those judges again if it bothers you that much. I know in HT and FT sometimes you don't get called back when you thought you would. I have lived with the decision when it has happened to me. I have not asked the judges to explain their reason. On one occasion I asked the marshall to please verify that my number was not called back when I thought I would have been. It was not a mistake and I wasn't called back don't know why I was dropped but was- so on I go to the next trial.

There will be times when you get called back when you thought you wouldn't too. It is disappointing when you believe you did the work and don't get back to the next series. It will happen probably many times over a dogs career. Doesn't make it right I know, but that is the way it goes.

Gene
 
#12 ·
To the person that got screwed. You have to do a number of things:
1. Getting it off your chest helps-the cathartic effect. Benifits your piece of mind.
2. The test told showed you something of your training: You need to get tighter and faster sits on your dog. Obedience in the yard and the field progress a little bit every day two - three weeks. Private email for a reading list of dog training material if you wish.
3. No body is out to get anybody in in hunt tests. Some judges standards may vary. You as a handler must set a higher standard for yourself in your behaviour and conduct and your dog work. Respect will come to you when you are respectful to those doing the judging.
4. The disapointment you expiernced is not uncommon tothe other competitors. Use that as a motivation to train smarter and more often. it sounds like you have a good young dog and you are almost there in having him be the dog to you and the judges can count on to do the test.
Good luck to you.
 
#13 ·
The fix for my big-running dog with loopy sits:
  1. More control via more frequent whistles (keep 'em on a laser-line and the number of whistles shouldn't matter)
  2. Visualizing my dog running the blind, and anticipating trouble spots. (If I see factors sucking my dog where he might end up behind cover, I stop him before them and cast off).
We lined a fair number of blinds en route to his MH, but I can tell you I had to damn-near swallow a Green Monster in doing so.

ml
 
#14 · (Edited)
Well we had two of the 6 dogs that passed.........and NO we do not false line our dogs...........also one of the judges was standing behind the handler watching him/her line up their dog for the blinds all day...........

.........Below is a photo of that part of the test in discussion...............

Blind planter is planting the blind out on the point as dog is returning from getting the middle mark which landed in front of the tules behind the dog on the shore........line to the blind was left of the tules 3-5 feet depending on where you sent your dog from (holding blind is where the dog was positioned for the remote marks and blind).........Maybe its just me, but it's seems obvious what the true line to the blind was and what was expected here...........




Norene Szechenyi
 
#17 ·
OK that clears things up a bunch. The deal is -based on your description and this picture- you owe Ron and Julie a public apology.
I would expect most of the field of Master dogs to see that picture and line that blind. If they didn't see the picture and got into the old fall, I would give you at most 2 casts to get them out into open water.

Bubba
 
#18 ·
Also judges never discribed what they wanted or didn't want ...... Bottom line, always ask if judges don't tell you what they want.

yep! Was there a test dog for the blind? ...

I agree, with whoever said it isn't sportsmanlike to bash the dogs that did finish the test, just because you feel like you were 'robbed'.....it isn't about competing against other dogs..it is about competing against a standard..MH test standard should be the highest standard of all the hunt test levels...I guess that might include the ability to challenge the factors presented to a higher degree than what one might see in a senior test...
train train train and train some more!
 
#19 ·
By that picture if one of my dogs would have went right behind the tooles on the right, my cast would have been no here, thanks for a nice test judges. I feel there is no way a MASTER dog should get out of sight on that blind. If they do it is either bad handler or bad dog and if you do loose sight of your dog you should expect to be dropped.
 
#20 ·
I was there and can't remember what your dog did on the blind. He did smack the marks. I did see this scenerio on about five dogs (again not sure yours did this) but if you look the line to the blind is about 3-4 feet off the first set of toolies, which by the way is where the middle bird landed. 4-5 dogs actually were stopped and or broke down in the old fall. That was the actual test. the marks weren't really the tough part. Those dogs that went to the old fall were dropped. I haven't looked at the rule book lately but I am pretty sure that is a DQ. At least with the pro I train with you will loose 5 lbs of Glute max if you allow this to happen. I did notice some of the pro trained dogs bounced off of that mark and or flared the mark whcih actuallt put them on line. I only mention this not to argue if you should have been dropped, but to explain one scenerio to train on if you haven't. I do a lot of sticj man drills to puch the dog past old falls. Hope this helps. Maybe someone could clairify if going over or stopping on the old fall is a DQ, I'm not sure. Sorry you didn't pass as the other work was pretty good.
 
#22 ·
Maybe someone could clairify if going over or stopping on the old fall is a DQ, I'm not sure.

In a situation like this, going to an old fall is almost a given - it's almost unavoidable. That's why the blind was placed where it was. The judges put a trap in the test, not to see if you would fall into it- if ya didn't it just means they didn't set it properly. They set the trap to see what would happen AFTER your dog found his/her way into the area. Would the dog respond to a cast and take a new line willlingly?
The judges presented a problem and judged how you and your valued hunting companion solved it. They are not going to ding you for falling into the trap, they ARE going to pay real close attention to how you arrive at a solution. I haven't actually talked to Ron and Julie, but I have run under them, held the clipboard while they ran, and judged WITH them often enough to know that this is how they approached it.

You are lucky they are as personable as they are- there are some jduges out there that would cheerfully add an ass eating to the drop.

I know one for sure regards

Bubba
 
#24 ·
Unca Jer;

Doing the math from Tomhunter's original post, its 50 - 60 yds. Dog must've sucked toward the middle mark while still on land or in running water. If not, then after that, it looks like if you were on line the dog would be on the point.

I agree with (ouch, do I have to say this?) Bubba: "I would expect most of the field of Master dogs to see that picture and line that blind. If they didn't see the picture and got into the old fall, I would give you at most 2 casts to get them out into open water."

Emphasis on: "..at most".

Live and learn,
train don't complain,
and other applicable cliches here.

Don't look at this as getting screwed though, think of it as getting schooled.

Bubbalicious regards,

Mark
 
#26 ·
Those dogs that went to the old fall were dropped. I haven't looked at the rule book lately but I am pretty sure that is a DQ.
Page 27:
A dog that returns to the area of a fall or a blind that
it has previously retrieved and establishes another hunt
shall be considered to have returned to an old fall.
Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating
circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall
shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking,
even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”
27
 
#37 ·
Actually this is not applicable. This pertains to MARKING (ie on a mark a dog that returns to an old fall or blind and establishes a hunt) not to running blinds.

Establishing a "hunt" on a blind most any time will get you bounced.

WRL
 
#28 · (Edited)
Great responses to all! I will admit Ron & Julie did present some good tests. After talking with more people and experienced handlers today, I somewhat understand things a little better. Blind line was to the right in the picture in front of holding blind.Picture is deceiving. Also to clarify, marshall said that there was 2 dogs that if handlers wanted to ask questions, they could. So, I did not just go seek them out to just argue with them. I was trying to understand. To clear one thing up, I was not bashing dogs or handlers that passed the whole test. I was talking about the second series. There were dogs that were way false lined. That added fuel to the fire.Also, dog did not ever establish another hunt in the area. He took my angle back cast and turned them into straight back casts.By immediately sitting him again and being a righthand turning dog, it got me into the troubled area.It is what is. I do sometimes let my emotions get the best of me and should had probably waited a day before venting. So, to Ron & Julie, I apologize! Great tests. I'm 2 yrs new to the game and my dog is obviously ahead of me as far as the game goes. However, learned 2 things. Ask, if judges don't explain test what they're expecting. Also,an over instead of angle back at toolies probably would had gotton me the ribbon. Frustrated as well, 2 of 3 failures have been due to my inexperience at Master level. Knowing your dog can do it, but not finishing definitly turns up the burners. Thanks, Ron&Julie!
 
#30 ·
TH,

You've gotten some good advice.

I am in agreement with Gene on his comments and decided to dig up some words of wisdom written in James Spencer's book RETRIEVER TRAINING TESTS.

He has some great stuff on pages 30 and 31 about "thanking the judges".

He writes in a few successive paragraphs, some wonderful words of advice. When you leave the line after each series, always Thank the judges.

I want to quote a little of Jim's stuff...it's that good.

He writes several sentences in a few different paragraphs about saying "thank you" to the judges as you leave the line, no matter what, after each series.

If you fail to qualify and do not honestly understand why, seek out one of the judges and ask him. But ask him politely: "What did my dog do wrong?" Not, "Why didn't you guys qualify my dog when everyone in the gallery said he should have passed?" Most judges will explain what your dog's mistakes were. Listen politely, then say thank you and walk away. Don't cross-examine. Don't "persuade". Don't plead. Don't argue. Don't explain. Don't post rhetorical questions. Don't threaten. Don't tell the judges about other dogs that passed with worse work than yours (in your opinion). Don't utter even one "Yeah, but..." Say thank you and walk away.

If you liked the tests, whether or not your dog qualified, tell the judges. Don't be surprised if they look stunned. They hear so little praise and so many complaints.

I stress courtesy in hunting tests because I have seen so much discourtesy over the years. Sometimes a handler - usually either a newcomer who knows nothing or an old hand who knows "everything" - behaves like one of the professional sports brats we have spawned in recent decades. As in so many activities, poor sportsmanship has reached the crisis stage in all dog games, including tests. But, Deo gratias, the sponsoring organizations (AKC, UKC, NAHRA have, at long last, begun to crack down.
Enough quoting of Spencer.

There's a bunch written by old J.B. Spencer that just plain makes good sense.

Chris
 
#31 ·
Tom:

Sorry you feel you got screwed. I've been mad as hades before over such things.

Gosh I've been there too but after I had a few days to mull it over and sort it out I came to this conclusion. 1.) It's over and done and I can't change it. 2) A judges job is really tough and they have to make some really tough calls throughout the day and like a refereee they aren't always 100% correct. Now I wasn't there so don't take it like I'm saying they were or weren't wrong.

There's always the next test. Good luck and perhaps work on some similar blinds so that there is absolutely no doubt.

Dog training is supposed to be fun not an excuse to get mad. Yes listen to me those who know me have seen me loose my temper before also but you know what it didn't change a thing and the dogs just look at you like your crazy.:rolleyes:
 
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