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2008 RABIES--Report on Adverse Vaccine Reactions in Dogs & Vaccine info

61K views 291 replies 48 participants last post by  Kris L. Christine 
#1 · (Edited)
There is much confusion in the general public about the duration of immunity of canine vaccines. Below is a copy of my testimony and model disclosure submitted to Maine's Agriculture Committee in support of LD 429, the nation's first pet vaccine disclosure legislation, which was introduced on my behalf by Representative Peter Rines of Wiscasset. Anyone who wishes to have copies of the attachments referenced below, please e-mail me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com.

PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.

February 27, 2005

TO: The Agriculture, Conservation and Forest Committee

RE: LD 429, An Act to Require Veterinarians to Provide Vaccine Disclosure Forms

My name is Kris Christine and I live with my family in Maine. Before I begin my testimony, I’d like to advise the committee that one of the world’s leading veterinary research scientists, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, wanted to be here today to testify in support of LD429, but could not do so because of prior commitments. With her permission, in the attachments to my testimony, I have included her letter to Representative Peter Rines dated February 17, 2005 (Attachment 5) resolutely endorsing this first-in-the-nation veterinary vaccine disclosure legislation.

I am here today to respectfully urge this committee to recommend passage of LD429 – An Act to Require Veterinarians to Provide Vaccine Disclosure Forms because pet owners need the scientifically proven durations of immunity (how long vaccines are effective for) in order to make informed medical choices for their animals.

Many Maine veterinarians have failed to inform clients that most core veterinary vaccines protect for seven or more years, and pet owners, unaware that their animals don’t need booster vaccinations more often, have unwittingly given their companions useless booster shots – taking an unnecessary toll on their finances and animals’ health. The human equivalent would be physicians vaccinating patients against tetanus once every year, two years, or three years and not disclosing that the vaccines are known to be protective for 10 years.

For years veterinarians have sent pet owners annual, biennial and triennial reminders for redundant booster shots and justified it with vaccine manufacturers’ labeled recommendations. According to the American Veterinary Medical Association’s (AVMA) Principles of Vaccination (Attachment 6), “..revaccination frequency recommendations found on many vaccine labels is based on historical precedent, not on scientific data … [and] does not resolve the question about average or maximum duration of immunity [Page 2] and..may fail to adequately inform practitioners about optimal use of the product…[Page 4] .” As the Colorado State University Veterinary Teaching Hospital states it: “…booster vaccine recommendations for vaccines other than rabies virus have been determined arbitrarily by manufacturers.”

Dr. Ronald Schultz, Chairman of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, is at the forefront of vaccine research and is one of the world’s leading authorities on veterinary vaccines. His challenge study results form the scientific base of the American Animal Hospital Association’s (AAHA) 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, Recommendations, and Supporting Literature (Attachment 7). These studies are based on science – they are not arbitrary. The public, however, cannot access this data. The American Animal Hospital Association only makes this report available to veterinarians, not private citizens, and Maine’s pet owners are unaware that the AAHA Guidelines state on Page 18 that: “We now know that booster injections are of no value in dogs already immune, and immunity from distemper infection and vaccination lasts for a minimum of 7 years based on challenge studies and up to 15 years (a lifetime) based on antibody titer.” They further state that hepatitis and parvovirus vaccines have been proven to protect for a minimum of 7 years by challenge and up to 9 and 10 years based on antibody count. So, unless the Legislature passes LD429 requiring veterinarians to provide vaccine disclosure forms, dog owners who receive an annual, biennial, or triennial reminders for booster shots will not know that nationally-accepted scientific studies have demonstrated that animals are protected a minimum of 7 years after vaccination with the distemper, parvovirus, and adenovirus-2 vaccines (see Page 12 AAHA 2003 Guidelines attached, and Table 1, Pages 3 and 4).

"My own pets are vaccinated once or twice as pups and kittens, then never again except for rabies,” Wall Street Journal reporter Rhonda L. Rundle quoted Dr. Ronald Schultz in a July 31, 2002 article entitled Annual Pet Vaccinations may be Unnecessary, Fatal (Attachment 2). Dr. Schultz knows something the pet-owning public doesn’t – he knows there’s no benefit in overvaccinating animals because immunity is not enhanced, but the risk of harmful adverse reactions is increased. He also knows that most core veterinary vaccines are protective for at least seven years, if not for the lifetime of the animal.

The first entry under Appendix 2 of the AAHA Guidelines (Attachment 7) “Important Vaccination ‘Do’s and Don’ts” is “Do Not Vaccinate Needlessly – Don’t revaccinate more often than is needed and only with the vaccines that prevent diseases for which that animal is at risk.” They also caution veterinarians: “Do Not Assume that Vaccines Cannot Harm a Patient – Vaccines are potent medically active agents and have the very real potential of producing adverse events.” Very few pet owners have had this disclosed to them.

The AVMA’s Principles of Vaccination (Attachment 6) states that “Unnecessary stimulation of the immune system does not result in enhanced disease resistance, and may increase the risk of adverse post-vaccination events.” (page 2) They elaborate by reporting that: “Possible adverse events include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. In addition, a causal association in cats between injection sites and the subsequent development of a malignant tumor is the subject of ongoing research.”(Page 2)

Referring to adverse reactions from vaccines, the Wall Street Journal article cited above (Attachment 2) reports: “In cats there has been a large increase in hyperthyroidism and cancerous tumors between the shoulder blades where vaccines typically are injected.” With modified live virus vaccines (distemper, parvovirus, hepatitis), some animals can actually contract the same disease which they are being inoculated against. If the public knew an animal’s immunity to disease is not increased by overvaccination, they would certainly not consent to expose their pets to potential harm by giving them excessive booster shots.

Veterinary vaccines are potent biologic drugs – most having proven durations of immunity much longer than the annual, biennial or triennial booster frequencies recommended by vaccine manufacturers and veterinarians. They also carry the very real risk of serious adverse side affects and should not be administered more often than necessary to maintain immunity.

The extended durations of immunity for vaccines is not “new” or “recent” science as some members of the Maine Veterinary Medical Association (MVMA) have claimed. AAHA reveals on Page 2 of their Guidelines that ideal reduced vaccination protocols were recommended by vaccinology experts beginning in 1978. A Veterinary Practice News article entitled “Managing Vaccine Changes” (Attachment 3) by veterinarian Dennis M. McCurnin, reports that: “Change has been discussed for the past 15 years and now has started to move across the country."

According to a September 1, 2004 article in the DVM veterinary news magazine (Attachment 1), the 312 member Maine Veterinary Medical Association (MVMA) “champions full disclosure of vaccine information to pet owners.” MVMA president, Dr. Bill Bryant, is quoted as stating: “Its time for something like this to come out … disclosure forms will be an important resource to have available, [and] if it goes before the Legislature, we’d likely support it.”

It is time. Pet owners have the right to know the scientifically proven durations of immunity for the veterinary vaccines given their animals, as well as the potential adverse side effects and benefits. LD 429 would make that standardized information available to all pet owners.

Respectfully submitted,
Kris L. Christine
Attachments
 
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#27 · (Edited)
Chris,

That is an excellent question. What is needed to fix the situation is rabies immunization laws based on science demonstrating long-term duration of immunity to the rabies vaccine by challenge so that dogs are not required to have rabies boosters any more often than is necessary to maintain immunity -- which will protect the human population as well as them.

This becomes more interesting in drawing the analogy with the human rabies vaccination. If you click on this link http://www.theodora.com/drugs/rabies_vaccine_rabavert_chiron.html for the Populations at Risk for Rabies sheet from Chiron Corporation, manufacturers of the RabAvert rabies vaccines for humans. Their pre-exposure vaccination recommendation for veterinarians, who are at greater risk than the general population for contracting rabies because their profession brings them into physical contact with potentially rabid animals, is for a “Primary course. No serologic testing or booster vaccination.” In other words, after the initial series of rabies vaccinations, it is not recommended that veterinarians receive further boosters or serological testing.

The American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm reports on Page 18 that “There is no indication that the immune system of canine patients functions in any way different from the human immune system. In humans, the epidemiological vigilance associated with vaccination is extremely well-developed and far exceeds similar efforts in animals whether companion or agricultural. This vigilance in humans indicates that immunity induced by vaccination in humans is extremely long lasting and, in most cases, life-long.” This strongly suggests that, like the human rabies vaccine, the canine rabies vaccine may provide life-long immunity as well -- something which could be determined by long-term challenge studies.

A titer of 1:5 is considered adequate to confer immunity in humans and dogs, yet our dogs are required to be repeatedly boostered with the rabies vaccine no matter what their titer count is. At the age of 9, my Meadow qualified for a medical exemption under the law due to his metasticized cancer. He hadn't had a rabies booster since he was 6 years old and he had a titer count of 1:5,8000 -- more than 1,000 times the level at which he would be considered protected.
 
#28 ·
This model disclosure form belongs with the first post, but was too long to post.

MODEL CANINE CORE VACCINE DISCLOSURE FORM

Prepared by Kris L. Christine

Vaccines have played a significant role in enabling animals to live longer and healthier lives. Thorough evaluations of the risks of the disease, and those potentially associated with the vaccine, compared to the benefits of vaccination for the patient, are necessary in crafting optimal health recommendations that include vaccination.

The proper application of vaccines to animal populations has enhanced their health and welfare, and prolonged their life-spans. The risks to animal health from non-vaccination are significant. However, vaccination is a potent medical procedure associated with both benefits and risks for the patient. Adverse events, including some that are potentially severe, can be unintended consequences of vaccination. Because vaccinating an animal which is already immune to a disease does not increase their immunity, but does expose them to the risk of adverse reactions, it is important to avoid overvaccination. Blood titers can help determine whether an animal’s antibody count is at protective levels.

The risks associated with the core canine diseases are as follows:

1. Distemper – high rates of morbidity and mortality from respiratory, gastrointestinal and neurological abnormalities; a widespread disease

2. Parvovirus – high rates of morbidity and mortality resulting primarily from gastrointestinal disease; this disease has worldwide distribution;

3. Canine Adenovirus – high rates of morbidity and mortality from liver dysfunction

4. Rabies – nearly universally fatal neurological disease. Infected animals are a potential source for human infection, thus vaccination is mandated by law in most states.

The risks associated with vaccination are as follows:

Possible adverse events from vaccination include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders such as hyper/hypothyroidism, polyarthritis, allergies, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. In addition, a causal association in cats between injection sites and the subsequent development of a malignant tumor is the subject of ongoing research.

Optimal immune responses are obtained by vaccines administered singly three to four weeks apart rather than in combination shots. Single vaccine administration also reduces the likelihood of adverse events as well as increasing the animal’s immune response. Only healthy animals should be vaccinated.

Except for the rabies vaccine, manufacturers’ labeled revaccination recommendations are based on limited scientific data and do not contain information on the vaccine’s maximum duration of immunity. The tables below contain the minimum duration of immunity data from the canine vaccine studies performed by Dr. Ronald Schultz, Professor and Chair of the Pathobiological Sciences Department at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, which form the scientific base of the American Animal Hospital’s 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, Recommendations, and Supporting Literature.

If your animal experiences any of the following symptoms after vaccination, you should contact your veterinary care provider immediately: fever, vomiting, diarrhea, uncontrollable trembling, lack of coordination, seizures or a hard lump at the vaccination site which doesn’t disappear after a couple of weeks.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Table 1: Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines

Vaccine Minimum Duration Methods Used to

Of Immunity Determine Immunity

Canine Distemper Virus (CDV)

Rockborn Strain 7 years/15 years challenge/serology
Onderstepoort Strain 5 years/9 years challenge/serology

Canine Adenovirus-2 (CAV-2) 7 years/9 years challenge-CAV-1/serology
Canine Parvovirus-2 (CPV-2) 7 years challenge/serology

Canine Rabies 3 years/7 years challenge/serology

Data from Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What we know and Don’t Know by Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Professor and Chair, Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine.

Note: Challenge studies are those in which an animal is vaccinated, isolated for a number of years, and then injected with high doses of virulent virus to test its immunity to disease. Serology is the method of counting antibody levels in the blood to determine an animal’s immunity.

Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB http://www.thebostonchannel.com:80/news/16410586/detail.html?rss=bos&taf=bos

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free -- CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "
 
#29 ·
Holistic Vet Advocates Alternative Pet Care http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08162/888634-338.stm
Tuesday, June 10, 2008 By Susan Banks, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

"I think poor nutrition is responsible for a majority of the chronic
disease we see in animals, and [too many] vaccines are a close second."

"When it comes to vaccines, he's of the unwavering opinion that they
are given too often, sometimes causing long-term effects that may not
be immediately apparent. Certain cancers have been linked to vaccines,
and it is thought some autoimmune problems and perhaps seizure
disorders are also triggered by boosters. "
 
#30 ·
Who would quote manure like this? Animals are living longer largely due to better nutrition and disease prevention by vaccinations and modern medicine. An opinion like this would be the same as me being quoted saying that Kris L. Christine's long, bold, red and black posts cause cancer. I can make the statement, some can take it as gospel, but it is still unfounded. Yes some side effects can occur, but more animals are protected than are ever harmed. As far as ongoing Ron Schultz quotes, we all know where he stands. He has an anus and has the right to an opinion. That is what many of his ideas are, opinion only.

Fact, I have a Great Pyrenes in my practice that has had rabies titers run yearly. Between year 4 and 5 the titer dropped below 1:5. Given current ideas on protective titers (not true fact), this dog is no longer protected. Ron Schultz would have me not vaccinate her, exposing me, the owner, and the dog to a potential risk of rabies. Too great a risk considering rabies is fatal and once symptoms develop, cannot be treated or prevented. The good news is that Kris is free to have an opinion and not vaccinate her dogs. The bad news is that if her dogs respond like the one above, we are all at increased risk to disease because her animal is potentially unprotected.
 
#31 ·
Perhaps the chief benefit of the Internet has been the "democratization" of information; no longer is it easy for DVMs and pharmaceutical companies to "control" the "facts" that are disseminated to the people. We, the common man, now have access to information on both sides of any argument.

It is clear - and understandable - that many vets will fight the scientifically established findings and recommendations that Kris has posted directly from the veterinary research community and label them as "manure"...it threatens the "vaccine hook" which vets use to bring clients through the door and bolster their bottom lines.

Armed with information from ALL sides of the vaccine issue, I think we, as pet owners, are better equipped to make informed decisions on the best care for our animals and not just what is the most profitable course of action for drug manufacturers and vet practices. JMO.
 
#33 ·
It is clear - and understandable - that many vets will fight the scientifically established findings and recommendations that Kris has posted directly from the veterinary research community and label them as "manure"...it threatens the "vaccine hook" which vets use to bring clients through the door and bolster their bottom lines.
If I believed this I would find another vet. What an awful thing to say about the folks we have to trusts our dogs lives and well being to? My vet, not being a sport dog specialist, is always open to discuss issues that I may read about or question. He does research if necessary. When we discussed the rabies vaccine, he was all for the once every 3 years. He has clients that "insist" on every year.

You have to choose for yourself, opt for internet generated health care programs for your dog, or get a vet you trust and make decisions together.
 
#34 ·
"I think poor nutrition is responsible for a majority of the chronic
disease we see in animals, and [too many] vaccines are a close second."
This is only my opinion, but I think the above is manure too.

Keeping current on shots regards,
 
#35 ·
It is clear - and understandable - that many vets will fight the scientifically established findings and recommendations that Kris has posted directly from the veterinary research community and label them as "manure"...i
This is the problem-the quotes that she posts are mixed in with opinions NOT from the accepted veterinary community but from anywhere and everywhere she can find them on the internet to support her side of the argument. Anyone can cut and paste from the Internet but that doesn't mean they are knowlegible or are promoting the most current information. As with any info you find on the Internet, reader beware. Your veterinarian should still be your source to answer questions for vaccinations in your area.
 
#38 ·
Most ACL injuries occur when the dog is running or jogging. Therefore we should never let our dogs run or jog again. That would prevent ACL injuries.

I love logical, reasonable and balanced solutions.



/Paul

Knee Jerk Solutions INC.
 
#40 ·
Is that smilie one of our choices here or did you import it, (from Panama or Mexico maybe?:cool: Great choice in the context. And thanks /Paul, you have helped me with a question posed on another thread, I promise to never let my dog walk or run again:p
 
#42 ·
Just a question. Do you have yourself and children given "Booster shots" for all the childhood diseases annually? Of course you know there was an outbreak of Small Pox in Africa a couple of years ago.

After almost losing our Boykin Spaniel to Autoimmune hemophhilic anemia our veterinarian agreed that annual boosters would create more problems than they would solve. Since then I only have my dogs vaccinated for rabies, every three years in NC and bordatella if they are boarded.

Prior to that I was one of the "want to do the best for my dog people" and did the annual boosters, etc. Not anymore.

You do what you think is right and I will do the same. No argument here.:)
 
#44 ·
Arkansas Veterinary Medical Association http://www.arkvetmed.org/new.html
RABIES VACCINATIONS
New Recommendations


Recommendations for maintaining adequate pre-exposure immunization status: A routine booster every two years is NOT recommended since the newer cell culture vaccines often confer adequate antibody levels for 5 to 8 years and risk of adverse reactions is increased by frequent boosters. The standard pre-exposure recommendation for veterinarians practicing in an area with enzootic rabies is serologic testing every two years with booster vaccination when the antibody titer falls below the acceptable level, i.e. 1:5 by RFFIT.
 
#45 ·
I'd rather take my chances with a possible rabies vaccine reaction, than my chances with a RABIES reaction. One causes inconvenient vet visits. One is 100% fatal once symptoms start. I make my money determining corporate risk, but even a non-expert should be able to figure out the risk-benefit analysis on this one.

CDC has been issuing frequent notices via ProMed and other outlets to public health professionals about the increase in human rabies. The biggest factor in this is over-urbanization of our society. Used to be, people knew and understood the risks of rabies, and vaccinated. Now, it is all theoretical, cerebral, an item for discussion on some chat board. How many peopl (outside the veterinary profession) have seen a rabid animal? I have, and it is not pleasant. It is an excruciatingly painful disease, that is (I am old, I get to repeat myself) 100% fatal once symptoms start.

Wildlife doesn't go away just because we pave over their habitat. There is considerable urban and suburban wildlife, so plenty of opportunity for rabies to jump from wildlife, to your dog, to YOU. When a rabid animal is discovered, ALL contacts with that animal, human and animal, are tracked down. The humans start post-exposure prophylaxis, and the animals' vaccination status is determined. Unvaccinated animals are euthanized, out-of-hand. This is not a negotiable point. It is a public health matter.

Personally, I do not want to be one of those people who wishes they woulda-coulda-shoulda vaccinated their dogs on the required schedule, but now that the raccoon they killed came back positive for rabies, it's too late to reconsider. Vaccinated pets are the buffer, the shield that stands between us and rabid wildlife. Without vaccinated pets, we stand to see an increase in human cases. Come to think of it, we already are seeing this increase.

Lisa
 
#46 ·
I trust my Vet. We have been with the same group since the mid 70's and every animal I have ever owned has gone there. Until last year she did not choose to use the 3 year Rabies vacine because of reactions she had heard and read about. We also choose to do a yearly because of how and where my dogs are hunted. We will now do a 3 year because she is comfortable with it. We do Lymes, Lepto, Bordatella because of what my dogs are exposed to also.

I appreciate everything my Vet does for me and my dogs and believe she has their best interest at heart. I am more concerned of injury while training or hunting than of vacine reaction. Over vacinate...no. But do what will keep them safe and healthy.
 
#47 ·
Lisa 100% correct!! Let me illustrate an example that happened to me about
1 1/2 yrs ago. When living in Allentown, the apartment comlex was the only one that allowed dogs. There were over 500 dogs on the premises. About a third of these were not vaccinated for rabies & other factors. There was a severe outbreak/occurance of rabies - raccoons in area were affected. They
are bones & food scraps left by the dumpsters. These bones strewed about the ground were assesible to the dogs to chew on. (siliva from raccoons on bones). This was a great concern to the local health dept.
Within a week of the initial outbreak, I was attacked and bitten by a pitbull
a neighbor rescue from a 'fighting ring'. This dog had no vaccination history.
The owners refused to quarantine the dog and moved away in the middle of the night. Four days after being bitten, the doctor sad the 'window' for safety was passed and I needed the series of shots. Well, story short - I got about 1/2 of them. Found I had reactions in the series - breathing and the shots were affecting my heart (had severe MI in 1999). I had a dilemma, to risk the shot with my health on the line or risk death if the dog was rabid - no cure once rabies sets in. Doctors said continue & my personal doctor said no. I was given 1 week to decide. Day I was to start shots again, I received a phone call from the local health dept - the dog that bit me was reported alive and unaffected (14 days after bite). Said shot were optional now, but not sure if I should continue. Agonizing over the decision, I finally decined the further shots. Fortunately the dog was not a carrier of rabies. But the fact remains of the public health concerns. I was told that if ever I am bitten again, esp by wild animals, I will face a major problem. Since I never finished the series, revaccination (series) will pose a greater risk to my health but there will be no choice, I must get the shots.
As Lisa said, the risk to everyone's health & well being (human & dogs) is paramount. No excuses. A vaccinated dog (cat, etc) is the barrier to prevent a outbreak in the human population. Look at the population and death related to rabies before vaccinations were available. Non-vaccinated dogs (rabies & other) is not only jeopardizing humans but the dog population (breeds) as a whole. Charlie
 
#48 ·
This thread has nothing to do with not vaccinating your dog. It is about how often to vaccinate. If you do your research, you will see that most often there is no need to vaccinate for rabies every year. After doing my own research and asking questions, I completely agree with what this thread is about. I will not get my dog vaccinated every year for rabies, even if I had to in my state.
 
#49 ·
I will not get my dog vaccinated every year for rabies, even if I had to in my state.
This is exactly where people go off the rails. If your dog is ever exposed to a rabid animal (and they don't have to be bitten, just in close proximity), and you have not vaccinated according to your state's requirements, your dog will be euthanized. Period.

I think one other thing people need to be aware of, is that an "adverse reaction" covers a wide gamut of things, from "my dog was sleepy after the shot" to real complicated reactions. With the increased awareness of rabies vaccination on the internet, it's no surprise there are increased reports of vaccine reactions. Poeple are looking for a problem,a nd reporting every post-vaccination red bump as a "reaction".

I am not minimizing those cases where a dog really, truly had a severe reaction to a vaccination. These happen, but do so rarely. The problem with the approaches being advocated on the internet, is that they do not take into consideration the individuality of canine immune systems. This is why states, in deciding Public Health law, set time limits for vaccinations. Better to vaccinate frequently and be sure a majority of the canine population is covered, than to use "by guess and by golly" AKA statistical avearges. Statistical averages were used to develop the every-3-years protocol now common in many states. Some dogs do not maintain immunity beyond 3 years, ergo the 3-year cutoff. And it is irresponsible to draw parallels between human post-vaccination titer levels and canine. They are not even remotely the same, and immune systems work considerably differently between the two species.

People don't always understand what they read on the internet. And many do not run titers on their dogs. They just get the shot and think they are covered for life "because I read it on the internet". This has caused at least 3 rabies outbreaks that were triggered by a canine bridge between rabid wildlife and humans in the past couple of years. People think the "facts" say they don't have to vaccinate. Epidemiology is telling us otherwise. A vaccinated canine (and feline, and equine) population has been the wall protecting humans from rabies for over 40 years. Now, that wall is crumbling. I don't know about you, but I am not at all comfortable with the idea that someone I love may contract rabies and die because someone else did not wish to vaccinate their dogs.

To me, this is not, nor should ever be, relegated to an academic discussion.

Rabies is real.

Lisa
 
#50 ·
Are you saying the states are wrong to go to a 3 year vaccination requirement on rabies. I for one am not for over vaccinating a dog just because a small few "may" not stay imune for the 3 years. Most of that reason is the vaccination never took properly in the first place. One reason being most people vaccinate at too early of an age. There is evidence many stay imune for much longer. I agree with my Vet, and my studies, most of this over vaccination comes from corporate greed. I will stay on the 3 year program and if the State allowed us to vaccinate according to Titer's, I would do that also. Without having to get into any type of argument, I think this is one of those subjects that many will not agree upon.

Thanks
 
#51 ·
Are you saying the states are wrong to go to a 3 year vaccination requirement on rabies.
No, the 1-year vs. 3-year is based on the vaccine formulation. States that have an every-3-year regulation on the books do so based on the fact that you must use the 3-year vaccine.

While I will not argue that you should trust your vet (and you should), where rabies and public health are concerned, this is one fight you cannot win. Should your dog ever be exposed to a rabid animal, his vaccination status will be quastioned. If his vaccination was outside the legal limit, he will be euthanized. Right or wrong, this is a matter of law. It has to be black and white, no gray areas, because human health is concerned. In order to change the law, the burden of proof must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that any new vaccination protocol is safe, and effective at preventing HUMAN rabies. Remember, we do not have universal rabies vaccination for dogs to protect THEM, it is to protect US.

You may choose to vaccinate as you wish. However, absent the abstract, cerebral, internet discussions, rabies is a real disease, and a real threat, particularly in the Eastern half of the US (all 3 2007 dog-to-human rabies contacts were in the Eastern US). If you choose to not vaccinate as the law dictates, you stand the real risk of losing your dogs. This is a consequence of your actions, and you have to know this going into the situation. Has your vet discussed this with you?

Greed of vets has nothing *nothing* to do with it. Neither does vaccine company greed. Most rabies vaccine doses are given free or at reduced cost (local rabies clinics are still free in many locales, particularly rural ones). Rabies vaccination is legally mandated because rabies is a serious, 100% fatal disease, that occurs in all mammalian species.

You are free tpmake choices as you wish. But what saddens me is that people like yourself jump to choices based not on fact, but on internet rhetoric. Rhetoric which, in this case, usually comes from apartment-dweling urbanites with no grasp of how things work in the real world. The reality is, wildlife rabies is on the upswing. And after many decades of no canine rabies cases, now we are starting to see them again as well. And human rabies is on the rise. Rabies is not nor has been anywhere close to being eradicated. Vaccination of dogs, cats, and livestock is our only protection against this disease. Please check out the CDC page on rabies before jumping to any decision you may later regret. Get the facts. And then get your dogs vaccinated.

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/

Lisa
 
#53 ·
What I am in complete agreement with is our dogs should be vaccinated for rabies. What I don't do and never will is believe everything I read, that goes for both sides of this argument. Obviously your research has brought you to one conclusion and mine, another. If you have time, do some research on how many dogs that had been vaccinated at least once in there life, has come down with rabies. From my research, it is only if the original vaccination did not take affect. Don't get me wrong, I am not against vaccination, it is definately needed. You say money is not a factor in the vaccination schedule, it most certainly is. I am not talking about the Vets, I am talking about the company's that manufacture this product, they do not give it away for free. I think you will find these company's are (were) funding the push to keep vaccination at 1 year intervals.
Lisa, I completely agree with you that these dogs need vaccination. Also, if your dog comes in close contact with a rabid animal, there are other options these states use, not just death. That is why there are laws that allow dogs being imported from other country's to be quaranteened (sp), they have no idea if this dog come in contact with an animal that has rabies.
 
#54 ·
I think you are confusing two different things. There is efficacy and length of effectiveness of a vaccine, and then there is black-letter law. Effectiveness of vaccines is determined by scientific method, not internet discussion. Work is being done to determine whether a different (perhaps 5-year) vaccination schedule will be just as effective. Until such time as the evidence overwhelmingly points out the safety of such a schedule, however, the rabies laws will remain as they are.

The laws regarding rabies are there to protect humans from this disease. If they were there because of corporate greed, then why isn't it legally mandated to vaccinate against distemper, parvo, etc? The short answer is that humans don't get these diseases, therefore whether you vaccinate for them or not is entirely up to you.

Rabies protection laws are there for a reason. Humans are very close to domestic animals. And domestic animals can come into contact with rabid wildlife. Yes, it really is that simple. This is why the rabies laws exist. I highly recommend that anyone following this discussion get ahold of a copy of their state's rabies protection law. You may have your eyes opened.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that dogs coming into the US from overseas are quarantined. They are not. They must, however, have been vaccinated for rabies at least 30 days before crossing any border into this country. Puppies under 3 months can come in, but must be kept on their owner's premises until they are old enough to vaccinate. I know. I have imported many dogs over the years, including the one in my avatar. Failure to show proof of vaccination results in confiscation and destruction of the imported dog, in every case.

There is also a flipside to most rabies laws (again, study the one for your state before making any vaccination decision). These laws not only apply to animals which come into contact with wildlife; they also apply when the unthinkable happens and Blackie, or Brownie, or Blondie bites someone, or scratches them hard enough to break skin. In every case, unvaccinated dogs must be destroyed. This is because the only way to tell for sure if an animal has rabies is to dissect the brain, which cannot be done on a living animal. The head is removed and sent to the state (sorry to be so graphic, but I am making a point here). If your dog has not been vaccinated within the state-mandated time period (1-year, or 3-year, depending on vaccine used), it is considered unvaccinated, and will be destroyed. Again, this is for the good of the bitten party, who stands to go through a series of painful post-exposure treatments if the status of the biting dog is not known. Dogs legally vaccinated do not have to go through this, but *do* have to be quarantined, usually at the county animal shelter, and usually at the owner's expense (depending on state law, there may be other penalties as well).

In instances where a dog ahs had contact with a rabid animal, unvaccinated dogs (using the black-letter law definition of unvaccinated, as above) are destroyed. Vaccinated dogs are not, but are quarantined, and re-vaccinated. The reson for these precautions is because rabies has a long incubation period. A dog exposed to rabies can appear normal for days, weeks, or even months, before showing symptoms. In the meantime, how many people would have come into contact with that dog? It is easier to stop an outbreak in its tracks by simply destroying any unvaccinated dog that has been bitten or scratched by a rabid animal. That way, there is no "coulda, shoulda, woulda" despearate attempt to track down every person who came into contact with that dog after the rabid animal incident. From the time the dog is exposed to rabies, until it deveopls symptoms itself, *every* human it is in contact with is now at risk of developing rabies. Every one must be tracked down, and given treatment. Think how many people that might be in the case of a competition dog or therapy dog. It can add up to the hundreds in some instances, or even thousands (as happened with a rabid horse at a race meet a year or two ago). Their treatments are paid for by your tax dollars. And they won't be too happy with *you* in the bargain.

I highly recommend that nobody change their vaccination schedules until the laws change. Or, if you do, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Read your state's laws, so you really understand what those consequences are. No "grounsdswell of opposition" fired by the internet wil get those laws changed. Refusing to vaccinate your dogs to make a point will noot change the laws. Only well-documented, controlled research will do that. Choosing to not boost your dog because you want to make a statement is your choice. But remember, you are choosing to disobey a valid law, and as an adult, must take responsibility and blame for any fallout that occurs.

Eyes Wide Open Regards;

Lisa
 
#56 ·
There is also a flipside to most rabies laws (again, study the one for your state before making any vaccination decision). These laws not only apply to animals which come into contact with wildlife; they also apply when the unthinkable happens and Blackie, or Brownie, or Blondie bites someone, or scratches them hard enough to break skin. In every case, unvaccinated dogs must be destroyed.
In North Carolina,
Any dog or cat (regardless of rabies vaccination status) that bites a person must be confined and observed for a 10-day period of time per NC Statute 130A-196. The local health director designates the location and conditions of the10-day confinement. At home confinement is NOT guaranteed but may be allowed at the discretion of the local health director.
If the dog/cat does die or develop clinical symptoms suggestive of rabies during the 10-day confinement period
submit the head for rabies diagnostic testing. If the dog or cat does not die or develop clinical signs suggestive of
rabies during the 10-day confinement period then it can be concluded that the dog/cat was not shedding rabies virus in its saliva at the time of the bite.


In instances where a dog ahs had contact with a rabid animal, unvaccinated dogs (using the black-letter law definition of unvaccinated, as above) are destroyed. Vaccinated dogs are not, but are quarantined, and re-vaccinated.
Apparently euthanasia is not mandatory for exposed unvaccinated dogs in NC

Here is what the North Carolina Law says

§ 130A-197. Infected dogs and cats to be destroyed; protection of vaccinated dogs and cats.

When the local health director reasonably suspects that a dog or cat has been exposed to the saliva or nervous tissue of a proven rabid animal or animal reasonably suspected of having rabies that is not available for laboratory diagnosis, the dog or cat shall be considered to have been exposed to rabies. A dog or cat exposed to rabies shall be destroyed immediately by its owner, the county Animal Control Officer or a peace officer unless the dog or cat has been vaccinated against rabies in accordance with this Part and the rules of the Commission more than three weeks prior to being exposed, and is given a booster dose of rabies vaccine within three days of the exposure. As an alternative to destruction, the dog or cat may be quarantined at a facility approved by the local health director for a period up to six months, and under reasonable conditions imposed by the local health director.
 
#55 ·
If anybody gets bored and is interested in the topic on vaccinations, do some research on Dr. Tom Phillips D.V.M Ph.D, and Dr. Ronald Schultz Ph.D immunologist and Professor/Chairman of Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Vetenary Medicine, University of Wisconsin. There are others out there, this is just a start.
What some of us don't understand, it is not the vaccination that protects these dogs from the pathogens, it is it's own immune system. These vaccinations do not 'attack' a disease, they ARE the disease. Once the immune system is exposed, antibodies are formed, most of the time for the dogs life, if not for many years. Only the immune response to Toxins require boosters, NO Toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. In most cases, revaccination fails to stimulate a secondary response as a result of
interference by existing antibodies. This is one reason there is research showing we have been vaccinating to early in a puppy's life, it still has the mothers antibodies, and some of these vaccines do not take.
Booster shots do not work when your dog's system ALREADY has antibodies
from previous vaccinations. Those existing antibodies neutralize the booster shot. Over vaccination destroys your dog's immune system.
Most Veterinary immunologists agree routine vaccinations are probably the worst thing we do for our animals. They cause all types of illnesses, and chronic diseases. The Rabies vaccine is probably responsible for more long term health problems than any other vaccine. There is now evidence showing that one rabies vaccination is good for many years, and probably for life.
If you have a choice, give your dog the 'Killed' vaccine, not the 'Modified-Live'
and not within 4 weeks of any other vaccine. This is if you are going to follow your States law. If you were to only give it once, you would want to give the 'Modified-Live', which has been proven to get an immune response from you dog that would probably protect him/her for life, but, if you are going to follow the 1 or 3 year plan, this would be too much for your dog to be given multiple times.
One last note, a dogs titer levels will rise and fall throughout its lifetime, researche has now shown, any level of titer for that disease, shows an immunity to that disease.
I would not expect everyone to have the same opinions on this subject, but when one person gives there opinion as "Exact", it rubs me the wrong way. Most of us have the ability to research, think for ourselves, and form our own opinions.

Thanks
 
#57 ·
Lisa, I do not argue the letter of the law, but we all can make our own decisions based on many factors. I am basing mine on my research, beliefs, and statistics. I am not going to overvaccinate my dog just because the laws are outdated. The chances of my dog becoming rabid after one successful vaccination is almost 0. You may believe giving many vaccinations to your dog does no harm, I believe otherwise. Fines, quaranteens, etc. that does not bother me because the chance of it happening in my 'neck of the wood', is again, almost 0. There is NOTHING that says you have to obey the law, just know there are consequences for not doing it, and make your decision from there.
 
#60 ·
Lisa, yes, there is a confinement period for dogs coming to the U.S that do not have rabies vaccination, or within 30 days. This is what I was referring to. I was in Iraq for 4 years, and this is what we had to do. You can look it up on cdc.gov website
 
#63 ·
It is what I was talking about. For puppies under vaccination age, they have to be confined. Here's the word from CDC:

"Unvaccinated dogs must be vaccinated within 4 days of arrival at their final U.S. destination and within 10 days of entry into the United States, and must be kept in confinement for at least 30 days after the date of vaccination."

As I said, you cannot bring an unvaccinated dog into the US. It *must* be vaccinated, either before, or immediately after, it enters the country.

Look, you and I can go round and round about this all day long. The bottom line is, you inhabit your own reality, where you reject any and all facts that do not fit in with your own preconceived notions. You are free to do so. But don't make out like it is the rest of us that are wrong. We have our own realities, too, and there is a wide range of experience on this board.

Are you a vet? You give vaccination recommendations such as type, frequency, etc. While you are free to do as you choose with your own animals, based upon your own beliefs, maybe you should temper your recommendations to others with a little bit about your background. What qualifies you to make vaccination recommendations to others?

Lisa
 
#61 ·
I agree, rabies vaccination in the U.S has been very successful. I am not saying not to vaccinate. I am questioning the validity of our vaccination process. 75% of rabies cases in the U.S come from Bats. Transmission from dogs in this country is very rare, due to the vaccination program for Rabies. The issue come in on over vaccination. You do not have to be a Medical expert to do your research and make a decision. If you have an illness, you talk to a few doctors, and then YOU make the decision on what you are going to do. I am not saying your conclusion will be the same as mine, but you do have the ability to come to a conclusion, not matter what it is. When I mention research, I am talking about research of Medical doctors, there research and opinions. I have never been one to just believe, or go along with something or someone just because. Others may do what they choose, thats all.
 
#64 ·
And the understanding on the frequency in the medical field to administer a rabies booster lies the problem. Chelsea's rescuer & vet is a follower of using the 3-year booster, while Chelsea's 1st vet was mixed- used 1 year boosters for some dogs and the other vet (in the same practice) used a 3-year booster
Before moving here (MC), Chelsea's normal vet left the area. Due to environmental conditions, wanted to vaccinate her for any perceivable problem (ie giardia etc). The vet that treated her gave a rabies booster (was 2 yrs ago - 3 yr booster since last shots). He wanted to re-vaccinate with a rabies booster every 6 month (he does it for ALL dogs). (Chelsea had shots in 2/08 and was due for this 2nd booster 8/08 (never got to make trip due to distance.) I am not too sure I agree with the every 6 months approach. Esp with the reactions she got from a 3-shot series where she almost died. I am planning to make the trip this month and will get her re-innoculated since it is now closer to the 1 year time frame. This vet has recently graduated and lectures at the school in Temple. His father is faculty at the same school. This vet explained the current approach to rabies vaccinations is a low-dose and frequent innoculation mandate taught at the school. He is totally against a 3-year vaccination.
Point of all this. To llustrate the different approaches and practices to administer rabies vaccines. As Lisa said, the internet offers a wide spectrum of philosophies as well as different practicing vets. This contradictory ideology
seems to be partially responsible for the confusion for pet owners to make well informed decision as to when to innculate. Rabies laws are Federal statues. Each individual state inforces these laws, but has descretion on madating when & how often. This also can create confusion.
(currious - this vet (6 month approach) is practicing from the Banfield practices located in some Petsmarts. Wondering if other Banfield vets are following this philosophy of every 6 months too or if it is solely followed by this vet only. Other words, anyone who uses this service experience similiar ideogies). Charlie
 
#65 ·
To llustrate the different approaches and practices to administer rabies vaccines. As Lisa said, the internet offers a wide spectrum of philosophies as well as different practicing vets. This contradictory ideology seems to be partially responsible for the confusion for pet owners to make well informed decision as to when to innoculate.
I would not expect everyone to have the same opinions on this subject, but when one person gives there opinion as "Exact", it rubs me the wrong way. Most of us have the ability to research, think for ourselves, and form our own opinions.
Don't give up your day job to lecture Immunology because some of your "facts" sound like they were found not on medical sites, but on non-medical holistic sites where they are blending them all together. Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true. If you don't have the background it's easy to get confused and cherry pick out what works for your beliefs.
 
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