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Thread: 2008 RABIES--Report on Adverse Vaccine Reactions in Dogs & Vaccine info

  1. #51
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarsled View Post
    Are you saying the states are wrong to go to a 3 year vaccination requirement on rabies.
    No, the 1-year vs. 3-year is based on the vaccine formulation. States that have an every-3-year regulation on the books do so based on the fact that you must use the 3-year vaccine.

    While I will not argue that you should trust your vet (and you should), where rabies and public health are concerned, this is one fight you cannot win. Should your dog ever be exposed to a rabid animal, his vaccination status will be quastioned. If his vaccination was outside the legal limit, he will be euthanized. Right or wrong, this is a matter of law. It has to be black and white, no gray areas, because human health is concerned. In order to change the law, the burden of proof must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that any new vaccination protocol is safe, and effective at preventing HUMAN rabies. Remember, we do not have universal rabies vaccination for dogs to protect THEM, it is to protect US.

    You may choose to vaccinate as you wish. However, absent the abstract, cerebral, internet discussions, rabies is a real disease, and a real threat, particularly in the Eastern half of the US (all 3 2007 dog-to-human rabies contacts were in the Eastern US). If you choose to not vaccinate as the law dictates, you stand the real risk of losing your dogs. This is a consequence of your actions, and you have to know this going into the situation. Has your vet discussed this with you?

    Greed of vets has nothing *nothing* to do with it. Neither does vaccine company greed. Most rabies vaccine doses are given free or at reduced cost (local rabies clinics are still free in many locales, particularly rural ones). Rabies vaccination is legally mandated because rabies is a serious, 100% fatal disease, that occurs in all mammalian species.

    You are free tpmake choices as you wish. But what saddens me is that people like yourself jump to choices based not on fact, but on internet rhetoric. Rhetoric which, in this case, usually comes from apartment-dweling urbanites with no grasp of how things work in the real world. The reality is, wildlife rabies is on the upswing. And after many decades of no canine rabies cases, now we are starting to see them again as well. And human rabies is on the rise. Rabies is not nor has been anywhere close to being eradicated. Vaccination of dogs, cats, and livestock is our only protection against this disease. Please check out the CDC page on rabies before jumping to any decision you may later regret. Get the facts. And then get your dogs vaccinated.

    http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/

    Lisa
    "Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here." - Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets

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  2. #52
    Senior Member jeff t.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Van Loo View Post
    No, the 1-year vs. 3-year is based on the vaccine formulation. States that have an every-3-year regulation on the books do so based on the fact that you must use the 3-year vaccine.
    I didn't realize this was true, so I did learn something from this thread.

    Thanks Lisa

    Jeff

    in a 3 year vaccine state
    Jeff Telander
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  3. #53
    Member Polarsled's Avatar
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    What I am in complete agreement with is our dogs should be vaccinated for rabies. What I don't do and never will is believe everything I read, that goes for both sides of this argument. Obviously your research has brought you to one conclusion and mine, another. If you have time, do some research on how many dogs that had been vaccinated at least once in there life, has come down with rabies. From my research, it is only if the original vaccination did not take affect. Don't get me wrong, I am not against vaccination, it is definately needed. You say money is not a factor in the vaccination schedule, it most certainly is. I am not talking about the Vets, I am talking about the company's that manufacture this product, they do not give it away for free. I think you will find these company's are (were) funding the push to keep vaccination at 1 year intervals.
    Lisa, I completely agree with you that these dogs need vaccination. Also, if your dog comes in close contact with a rabid animal, there are other options these states use, not just death. That is why there are laws that allow dogs being imported from other country's to be quaranteened (sp), they have no idea if this dog come in contact with an animal that has rabies.
    Maine - The way life should be

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
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    I think you are confusing two different things. There is efficacy and length of effectiveness of a vaccine, and then there is black-letter law. Effectiveness of vaccines is determined by scientific method, not internet discussion. Work is being done to determine whether a different (perhaps 5-year) vaccination schedule will be just as effective. Until such time as the evidence overwhelmingly points out the safety of such a schedule, however, the rabies laws will remain as they are.

    The laws regarding rabies are there to protect humans from this disease. If they were there because of corporate greed, then why isn't it legally mandated to vaccinate against distemper, parvo, etc? The short answer is that humans don't get these diseases, therefore whether you vaccinate for them or not is entirely up to you.

    Rabies protection laws are there for a reason. Humans are very close to domestic animals. And domestic animals can come into contact with rabid wildlife. Yes, it really is that simple. This is why the rabies laws exist. I highly recommend that anyone following this discussion get ahold of a copy of their state's rabies protection law. You may have your eyes opened.

    I'm not sure where you got the impression that dogs coming into the US from overseas are quarantined. They are not. They must, however, have been vaccinated for rabies at least 30 days before crossing any border into this country. Puppies under 3 months can come in, but must be kept on their owner's premises until they are old enough to vaccinate. I know. I have imported many dogs over the years, including the one in my avatar. Failure to show proof of vaccination results in confiscation and destruction of the imported dog, in every case.

    There is also a flipside to most rabies laws (again, study the one for your state before making any vaccination decision). These laws not only apply to animals which come into contact with wildlife; they also apply when the unthinkable happens and Blackie, or Brownie, or Blondie bites someone, or scratches them hard enough to break skin. In every case, unvaccinated dogs must be destroyed. This is because the only way to tell for sure if an animal has rabies is to dissect the brain, which cannot be done on a living animal. The head is removed and sent to the state (sorry to be so graphic, but I am making a point here). If your dog has not been vaccinated within the state-mandated time period (1-year, or 3-year, depending on vaccine used), it is considered unvaccinated, and will be destroyed. Again, this is for the good of the bitten party, who stands to go through a series of painful post-exposure treatments if the status of the biting dog is not known. Dogs legally vaccinated do not have to go through this, but *do* have to be quarantined, usually at the county animal shelter, and usually at the owner's expense (depending on state law, there may be other penalties as well).

    In instances where a dog ahs had contact with a rabid animal, unvaccinated dogs (using the black-letter law definition of unvaccinated, as above) are destroyed. Vaccinated dogs are not, but are quarantined, and re-vaccinated. The reson for these precautions is because rabies has a long incubation period. A dog exposed to rabies can appear normal for days, weeks, or even months, before showing symptoms. In the meantime, how many people would have come into contact with that dog? It is easier to stop an outbreak in its tracks by simply destroying any unvaccinated dog that has been bitten or scratched by a rabid animal. That way, there is no "coulda, shoulda, woulda" despearate attempt to track down every person who came into contact with that dog after the rabid animal incident. From the time the dog is exposed to rabies, until it deveopls symptoms itself, *every* human it is in contact with is now at risk of developing rabies. Every one must be tracked down, and given treatment. Think how many people that might be in the case of a competition dog or therapy dog. It can add up to the hundreds in some instances, or even thousands (as happened with a rabid horse at a race meet a year or two ago). Their treatments are paid for by your tax dollars. And they won't be too happy with *you* in the bargain.

    I highly recommend that nobody change their vaccination schedules until the laws change. Or, if you do, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Read your state's laws, so you really understand what those consequences are. No "grounsdswell of opposition" fired by the internet wil get those laws changed. Refusing to vaccinate your dogs to make a point will noot change the laws. Only well-documented, controlled research will do that. Choosing to not boost your dog because you want to make a statement is your choice. But remember, you are choosing to disobey a valid law, and as an adult, must take responsibility and blame for any fallout that occurs.

    Eyes Wide Open Regards;

    Lisa
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  5. #55
    Member Polarsled's Avatar
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    If anybody gets bored and is interested in the topic on vaccinations, do some research on Dr. Tom Phillips D.V.M Ph.D, and Dr. Ronald Schultz Ph.D immunologist and Professor/Chairman of Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Vetenary Medicine, University of Wisconsin. There are others out there, this is just a start.
    What some of us don't understand, it is not the vaccination that protects these dogs from the pathogens, it is it's own immune system. These vaccinations do not 'attack' a disease, they ARE the disease. Once the immune system is exposed, antibodies are formed, most of the time for the dogs life, if not for many years. Only the immune response to Toxins require boosters, NO Toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. In most cases, revaccination fails to stimulate a secondary response as a result of
    interference by existing antibodies. This is one reason there is research showing we have been vaccinating to early in a puppy's life, it still has the mothers antibodies, and some of these vaccines do not take.
    Booster shots do not work when your dog's system ALREADY has antibodies
    from previous vaccinations. Those existing antibodies neutralize the booster shot. Over vaccination destroys your dog's immune system.
    Most Veterinary immunologists agree routine vaccinations are probably the worst thing we do for our animals. They cause all types of illnesses, and chronic diseases. The Rabies vaccine is probably responsible for more long term health problems than any other vaccine. There is now evidence showing that one rabies vaccination is good for many years, and probably for life.
    If you have a choice, give your dog the 'Killed' vaccine, not the 'Modified-Live'
    and not within 4 weeks of any other vaccine. This is if you are going to follow your States law. If you were to only give it once, you would want to give the 'Modified-Live', which has been proven to get an immune response from you dog that would probably protect him/her for life, but, if you are going to follow the 1 or 3 year plan, this would be too much for your dog to be given multiple times.
    One last note, a dogs titer levels will rise and fall throughout its lifetime, researche has now shown, any level of titer for that disease, shows an immunity to that disease.
    I would not expect everyone to have the same opinions on this subject, but when one person gives there opinion as "Exact", it rubs me the wrong way. Most of us have the ability to research, think for ourselves, and form our own opinions.

    Thanks
    Maine - The way life should be

  6. #56
    Senior Member jeff t.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Van Loo View Post
    There is also a flipside to most rabies laws (again, study the one for your state before making any vaccination decision). These laws not only apply to animals which come into contact with wildlife; they also apply when the unthinkable happens and Blackie, or Brownie, or Blondie bites someone, or scratches them hard enough to break skin. In every case, unvaccinated dogs must be destroyed.
    In North Carolina,
    Any dog or cat (regardless of rabies vaccination status) that bites a person must be confined and observed for a 10-day period of time per NC Statute 130A-196. The local health director designates the location and conditions of the10-day confinement. At home confinement is NOT guaranteed but may be allowed at the discretion of the local health director.
    If the dog/cat does die or develop clinical symptoms suggestive of rabies during the 10-day confinement period
    submit the head for rabies diagnostic testing. If the dog or cat does not die or develop clinical signs suggestive of
    rabies during the 10-day confinement period then it can be concluded that the dog/cat was not shedding rabies virus in its saliva at the time of the bite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Van Loo View Post
    In instances where a dog ahs had contact with a rabid animal, unvaccinated dogs (using the black-letter law definition of unvaccinated, as above) are destroyed. Vaccinated dogs are not, but are quarantined, and re-vaccinated.
    Apparently euthanasia is not mandatory for exposed unvaccinated dogs in NC

    Here is what the North Carolina Law says

    130A-197. Infected dogs and cats to be destroyed; protection of vaccinated dogs and cats.

    When the local health director reasonably suspects that a dog or cat has been exposed to the saliva or nervous tissue of a proven rabid animal or animal reasonably suspected of having rabies that is not available for laboratory diagnosis, the dog or cat shall be considered to have been exposed to rabies. A dog or cat exposed to rabies shall be destroyed immediately by its owner, the county Animal Control Officer or a peace officer unless the dog or cat has been vaccinated against rabies in accordance with this Part and the rules of the Commission more than three weeks prior to being exposed, and is given a booster dose of rabies vaccine within three days of the exposure. As an alternative to destruction, the dog or cat may be quarantined at a facility approved by the local health director for a period up to six months, and under reasonable conditions imposed by the local health director.
    Jeff Telander
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  7. #57
    Member Polarsled's Avatar
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    Lisa, I do not argue the letter of the law, but we all can make our own decisions based on many factors. I am basing mine on my research, beliefs, and statistics. I am not going to overvaccinate my dog just because the laws are outdated. The chances of my dog becoming rabid after one successful vaccination is almost 0. You may believe giving many vaccinations to your dog does no harm, I believe otherwise. Fines, quaranteens, etc. that does not bother me because the chance of it happening in my 'neck of the wood', is again, almost 0. There is NOTHING that says you have to obey the law, just know there are consequences for not doing it, and make your decision from there.
    Maine - The way life should be

  8. #58
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarsled View Post
    Most of us have the ability to research, think for ourselves, and form our own opinions.
    When it comes to rabies vaccination, the only opinion that counts is the state's.

    Lisa
    "Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here." - Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Keith Stroyan's Avatar
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    From the CDC site:

    What happens if my pet (cat, dog, ferret) is bitten by a wild animal?

    Any animal bitten or scratched by either a wild, carnivorous mammal or a bat that is not available for testing should be regarded as having been exposed to rabies. Unvaccinated dogs, cats, and ferrets exposed to a rabid animal should be euthanized immediately. If the owner is unwilling to have this done, the animal should be placed in strict isolation for 6 months and vaccinated 1 month before being released. Animals with expired vaccinations need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Dogs and cats that are currently vaccinated are kept under observation for 45 days.

    ==

    From Wikipedia:

    In non-vaccinated humans, rabies is almost invariably fatal after neurological symptoms have developed, but prompt post-exposure vaccination may prevent the virus from progressing. There are only six known cases of a person surviving symptomatic rabies...

    ===

    This means in all human history... 6.

    ===

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarsled View Post
    ...Most of us have the ability to research, think for ourselves, and form our own opinions.
    While I do find the research interesting, I lack the medical training to reach an opinion NOT to vaccinate according to law.

    It's a more difficult decision for me on things like lepto where my vet does NOT routinely vaccinate...

  10. #60
    Member Polarsled's Avatar
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    Lisa, yes, there is a confinement period for dogs coming to the U.S that do not have rabies vaccination, or within 30 days. This is what I was referring to. I was in Iraq for 4 years, and this is what we had to do. You can look it up on cdc.gov website
    Maine - The way life should be

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