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Thread: Unbelievable Decision

  1. #1
    Member DuckManiac's Avatar
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    Default Unbelievable Decision

    I now remember why I haven’t run a Hunt Test in the last 5 or 6 years. As a Marshal for a Master Hunt Test yesterday I witnessed the most incredible situation I have ever seen.

    The scenario was on the walk up a right hand bird was thrown. The handler would call the dog off this bird and run a blind. Then when the dog returned another two marks were thrown. The dog would then pick up all three marks and run another blind.

    The handler and dog in question ran a decent blind and a winger malfunctioned causing him to get a no-bird. After moving back the designated number of dogs the handler was properly instructed that he had to complete the test just as he had done previously but he would not be judged again on the previously completed test. Judging would begin from the point of the no-bird.

    On the re-run while running the repeat blind the handler allowed the dog to get off line by 90+ yards on a blind that was only 100 yards to begin with. The handler was really late on whistles and could never gain control of the dog allowing the dog to pick up the poison bird mark.

    After running all the dogs I had broke down the test when I was instructed that we needed to re-run this dog again. “WHAT, you have to be kidding?” was my response. After much debate the judges overruled me and re-ran the dog which did a good job.

    Unfortunately this decision was made by a highly respected Hunt Test judge who is extremely involved with the Master National Retriever Club. The handler in question happens to be extremely involved with the club holding an upcoming Master National event.

    Below there’s a copy of the rules and regulations that applies. I had two arguments presented to me. First, the handler on his re-run did attempt to pick up the blind in the original order but failing to do so should be allowed to try again. The other argument was this highly respected judge is very knowledgeable with the Hunt Test Rules and Regulations and must be correct.

    Section 12. If there is an occurrence which makes
    for a relatively unfair test of a dog’s abilities, the Judges
    shall exercise their discretion in determining how to
    score the abilities of the dog in that series. In doing so,
    the Judges may decide that it is necessary or unnecessary
    to re-run the dog.
    The re-run of a mark or blind which was not previously
    completed shall be scored by taking into consideration
    the abilities exhibited by the dog prior to the
    point of unfairness in the initial run, and after the point
    of unfairness in the re-run.
    If, during the re-run of a mark or blind not previously
    completed, a dog commits an infraction that would have
    resulted in it’s automatic elimination in the initial run, the
    dog cannot receive a qualifying score.
    The handler of the working dog must attempt to pick the
    birds up in the same order in the re-run as was completed
    in the initial running of the tests.
    Tony Allen

  2. #2
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    You can send them to seminars, you can make them take the test.

    You cannot make them judge according to the book.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    You can send them to seminars, you can make them take the test.

    You cannot make them judge according to the book.
    Isn't that the sad truth. It's not just Hunt Test either, but every sector of every dog-related activity. The best you can do is make a note of the judge and not attend where they are judging, and encourage others to boycott as well.

  4. #4
    Member DuckManiac's Avatar
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    A Committee member suggested that next year’s Hunt Test we buy enough ribbons for every dog and just leave them in a box at the headquarters so everyone can get one when they check in…if they like they could still run a dog.

    I think this suggestion has my vote it sure would make it easier on the club…and every one would leave happy!
    Tony Allen

  5. #5
    Senior Member Goldenboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuckManiac View Post
    After running all the dogs I had broke down the test when I was instructed that we needed to re-run this dog again. “WHAT, you have to be kidding?” was my response. After much debate the judges overruled me and re-ran the dog which did a good job.
    Tony,

    I don't believe that a stake marshall can make a ruling and, therefore, he can't be "overruled". Any perceived infractions should be brought to the attention of the Hunt Test committee, as I'm sure you know.
    Mark

  6. #6

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    I don't do hunt tests but I am interested in how this situation should have been handled. The Rule 12 that is used to demonstrate that the judges made a improper decision only refers to marks or blinds that have not already been completed. If the dog was not under judgment, what rule states that the dog should be dropped.

    I am asking for my own curosity as I do not have a hunt test rule book.

    Thanks

  7. #7
    Member DuckManiac's Avatar
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    I used the term overruled for lack of a better term. I brought it to the attention of the judges that the rule book states “The handler of the working dog must attempt to pick the birds up in the same order in the re-run as was completed in the initial running of the tests.”

    Normally this applies to marks. Strictly for an example, if the handler originally picks up a triple left bird first and right bird second then gets interfered and the judges rule a re-run is appropriate. The handler must attempt to pick up the birds in this same order on the re-run. If the handler sends the dog for the left bird first but lets say the dog winds the middle bird and changes direction and picks up the middle bird first he should not be disqualified for simply picking up the birds in a different order…the handler attempted to pick up the birds in the same order but the dog decided otherwise and now they still have to pick up the other 2 birds which they will not be scored (read between the lines handle if you must). The dog should only be scored on the middle bird which hadn’t been picked up on the original run.

    In this situation it was a blind. The handler had already been judged on the blind and could have used 1000 whistles and 30 minutes to pick up the blind and still would have received the score of his first attempt. When the handler gave up on the blind and hit a come in whistle to pick up the poison bird they failed the test. Remember this is a Master Test, a dog should be able to run a blind and not be 90 years off line, but even so if the handler could have gottenthe dog to correct back on line and pick up the blind first the judges should have used the original blinds score and finished the test.

    Come on this is a no brainer!!! It is because of judging like this that a MH title doesn’t mean much at all. If you run enough tests you will get enough give me tests to title a dog.
    Tony Allen

  8. #8
    Member DuckManiac's Avatar
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    You can find all of the AKC Rule Books online at www.AKC.org
    Tony Allen

  9. #9
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuckManiac View Post
    I used the term overruled for lack of a better term. I brought it to the attention of the judges that the rule book states “The handler of the working dog must attempt to pick the birds up in the same order in the re-run as was completed in the initial running of the tests.”

    Normally this applies to marks. Strictly for an example, if the handler originally picks up a triple left bird first and right bird second then gets interfered and the judges rule a re-run is appropriate. The handler must attempt to pick up the birds in this same order on the re-run. If the handler sends the dog for the left bird first but lets say the dog winds the middle bird and changes direction and picks up the middle bird first he should not be disqualified for simply picking up the birds in a different order…the handler attempted to pick up the birds in the same order but the dog decided otherwise and now they still have to pick up the other 2 birds which they will not be scored (read between the lines handle if you must). The dog should only be scored on the middle bird which hadn’t been picked up on the original run.

    In this situation it was a blind. The handler had already been judged on the blind and could have used 1000 whistles and 30 minutes to pick up the blind and still would have received the score of his first attempt. When the handler gave up on the blind and hit a come in whistle to pick up the poison bird they failed the test. Remember this is a Master Test, a dog should be able to run a blind and not be 90 years off line, but even so if the handler could have gotten the dog to correct back on line and pick up the blind first the judges should have used the original blinds score and finished the test.

    Come on this is a no brainer!!! It is because of judging like this that a MH title doesn’t mean much at all. If you run enough tests you will get enough give me tests to title a dog.

    You are absolutly correct and that dog should have been zero'd out.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Dale's Avatar
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    Ok, I have to ask 1 did you see the dog run the first time from the judges vantage point and 2 did you see the dog re-run from the judges vantage point? Was there something that may have occurred between judges and handler that you were not aware of?

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