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Thread: Pondering the result of carrier status

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    Senior Member Aussie's Avatar
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    Default Pondering the result of carrier status

    With the shortly to be released EIC, current CNM, prospective RD and long standing PRA tests what will breeders do with carriers.

    For example, I should imagine puppy bitches will be easier to sell than males. Have breeders found this to be so with the current available tests?
    Field trial labradors, the wind beneath my wings,

    sometimes poop under my boots.

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    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    I think females have always been more popular, esp amongst the pet homes.

    As for carriers, we'll all just have a big(ger) cheat sheet for each of our dogs as they add more tests. Carriers must be bred to tested Clears only. With a clear, you could get away w/ an untested dog if you have to (like if dog is dead and no way to test him), but with the understanding we'll have to test the offspring prior to any breeding.

    That's the long and short of it. Explaining it to people who don't understand genetics will be a whole 'nother thing, because we'll always have the folks that will claim their dogs are clear for everything (yet never tested for anything) and use a carrier status against the truly honest breeder. It's really scary to talk to folks who were sold pups on Full registration, yet they don't even know basic genetic principles so have no idea what the difference is between Clear, Carrier and Affected.
    Last edited by windycanyon; 07-03-2008 at 11:39 PM.

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    Senior Member Ken Archer's Avatar
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    How many people will now sell their pups on a Limited Registration subject to getting a full battery of tests regardless of results. I think that might be a step in the right direction. I'm not saying you shouldn't breed a carrier. I just think that, at the very least, you should know if your dog is a carrier or not. Personally, I wouldn't hold someone responsible to test for something when the dog is clear by parentage, but it would be a good idea.

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    Senior Member Page's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie View Post
    With the shortly to be released EIC, current CNM, prospective RD and long standing PRA tests what will breeders do with carriers.
    They should continue to breed to dogs who tested clear. A carrier is only that. They can't pass on a disease they don't have unless the other dog also carries so it shouldn't mean anything drastic for the dog. The owners should simply state in their breeding contracts that dog XYZ will not be bred to a bitch without proof that she has been tested and come back clear.

    There is nothing wrong with a carrier; the problems arise when they double up.
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    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Breeding a carrier to a clear certainly produces no problems for the puppies in that litter. You will get a mix of carrier and clear pups. The question them becomes: If we are trying to remove this genetic trait from the breed why are we breeding carriers? Not all breeders have dogs tested. Look in your local newspaper and I would bet you could find a litter that has parents without OFA and CERF.

    I have a pup who is CNM clear through parentage. My older bitch has not yet been tested. Do I want a pup from my faithfull companion? YES!! If she tests as a carrier will breeding her improve the breed? HARD QUESTION. I hope she tests negative and I am not faced with that decision.

    Breeders are going to be held to higher and higher standards as more and more genetic tests become available.

    Mark L.

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    Senior Member Page's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    Breeding a carrier to a clear certainly produces no problems for the puppies in that litter. You will get a mix of carrier and clear pups. The question them becomes: If we are trying to remove this genetic trait from the breed why are we breeding carriers? Not all breeders have dogs tested. Look in your local newspaper and I would bet you could find a litter that has parents without OFA and CERF.
    It is not responsible to breed any dog without clearances and if there is a carrier produced in the litter, what applied to the sire or dam should apply to the puppies. No carrier should be bred without documentation stating that the other dog is clear.

    All pet puppies in a litter should be sold on limited registration anyway to discourage irresponsible or ignorant breeding. All puppies going to other breeders should be tested before breeding.

    People who ignorantly breed dogs, put their puppies in the paper, and then sell them with full registration are not responsible breeders so what do you suggest to stop them?

    One of my favorite stud dogs out there right now is a PRA carrier and I would love to use him on a clear bitch. Many of my close friends have already bred to him and simply had their chosen bitch tested beforehand. I have personally seen many of the puppies produced and they are awesome.

    I only have studs right now, but many of my friends have bitches and usually have a few litters a year. Each puppy who goes to someone who doesn't compete in some venue (pet home) is sold on limited registration with a spay/neuter contract. Those who go to other competitors whether it be conformation, obedience, agility or hunt are sold on full registration with the understanding that the puppies should not be bred without health clearances.

    I would absolutely breed a carrier to a clear dog if it had everything else I was looking for.
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    Senior Member Page's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    Do I want a pup from my faithfull companion? YES!! If she tests as a carrier will breeding her improve the breed? HARD QUESTION. I hope she tests negative and I am not faced with that decision.
    One more thing.

    If your bitch was absolutely everything you wanted otherwise you could breed her even if she was affected as long as it was to a clear and everyone understood that the puppies were carriers. No big problem, just breed the pups to clear dogs and look....you are improving the breed.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    We are testing for so many things these days (as we should), but why throw a great dog out of a breeding program when you know which dogs you can safely breed it to?

    Be responsible with your choices. As long as you avoid the possibility of creating an affected dog with your breeding program, and selling your pet dogs on spay/neuter contracts and limited registration I say you are being a responsible breeder.
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    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Page, first let me commend you and your friends for the limited registration/ spay or neuter contract with pet homes. That is another situation I hope not to be faced with. I have very hard charging field bred labs. IMHO selling puppies out of my dogs to a pet home is a poor fit for both the dog and the owner. I would rather give away the pups to someone who would work them.

    As far as my dog having everything else I wanted. I am a perfectionist and have yet to see a dog that had everything I wanted. I am also a realist. I know how much I love my dog and it affects my perception of her. As an example ask any parent which child is the best all around in a class and the answer will be my child.

    I have not decided if I personally would breed my dog if she is a carrier. It is my decision to make. You have made yours and have the facts to back up your opinion. I have no problem with that.

    As far as the "newspaper breeders", we have always had these people and will continue to have them.

    I am now a little gunshy of seeing my posts in quotations. I have learned the hard way it means I have offended someone. Sorry tact has never nor will ever be my strong point. Blame my parents. Maybe they were irresponsible breeders.
    Mark L

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    Senior Member Montview's Avatar
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    I, too, believe that there is much more to a dog or bitch than its carrier status. While I think that *knowing* a dog's carrier status is extremely important when making smart breeding decisions, I think that it is only one part of an otherwise very large puzzle.

    Heck, where would the breed be if any of those fantastic specimens from the past were spayed/neutered because they carried EIC? We're not talking affected dogs here...just the carriers. You have to put more thought into a breeding than purely breeding on clearances. A breeder needs to look at the total dog, not just breed to the "stud dog of the month" because they can sell those puppies more easily. Disclaimer: This does not, obviously, mean that anyone would recommend breeding a dog that is affected by EIC, HD, etc.

    I also agree with you, Mark- very good point. If you have lines that simply won't do well in and thus, will not be placed in pet homes, it could become a much more sticky situation and one that I don't know that I have an answer for. It would be much more likely that those people will want to breed these dogs once they reach proper age. HOPEFULLY, those people will do clearances on those dogs before even considering breeding them, but can we *enforce* that?

    Otherwise, I wonder how feasible it would be for breeders to sell on a "contract" (obviously, these aren't always enforceable, but at least you would be doing your part to make sure it is in the open that people are buying a puppy who could very well be a carrier) that specifically states that any dog/puppy who came from a clear-to-carrier breeding *only* be bred in the future to TESTED and CLEAR dogs/bitches, thus preventing any affected puppies from being produced even if the dogs being bred are carriers? It would mean you would certainly have to trust your puppy buyers to make ethical and responsible testing and breeding decisions.

    I know that most breeders I know who own an Optigen B stud dog *require* any bitch being bred to him be tested, and tested as "negative/unaffected." That should also be what owners of EIC carrier stud dogs should be requiring.

    JMHO, as always.

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    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Archer View Post
    How many people will now sell their pups on a Limited Registration subject to getting a full battery of tests regardless of results. I think that might be a step in the right direction. I'm not saying you shouldn't breed a carrier. I just think that, at the very least, you should know if your dog is a carrier or not. Personally, I wouldn't hold someone responsible to test for something when the dog is clear by parentage, but it would be a good idea.
    Ken, I'm doing that already, but my situation has been a little different from FT breeders. I hand pick my pups for competition homes based on structure and attitude. Usually I know those people getting the pups, and/or have a very good feeling for them. Pet people, 95%+ of the time, have no desire to breed (or show), so the limited reg doesn't bother them at all. It's the higher calibered performance or show people where the Limited reg could pose a problem, but the way I see it, I make no decisions about breeding my own (and the show ring isn't usually that kind to youngsters of moderate build), so why can't they wait til the clearances are in at 2 yo too? Once I explain that to any that may be offended, all is fine. Or they walk... oh well.

    ETA: I don't know what the solution is for the FT'ers... is Full reg still required to run Derbys too?
    Last edited by windycanyon; 07-04-2008 at 03:12 PM.

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