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Search and Rescue (SAR)

4K views 21 replies 10 participants last post by  taylormade 
#1 ·
I had previous puppy buyer with a 6 month old GRF on the west coast contact me about some SAR questions. I'm an upland and hunt test person without much experience in training for SAR. She had a few questions so I'd appreciate any help I can offer her.

See her comments below. I reminded her that she needs to work at the dogs pace. 6 Months old is all. Don't over train or burn her out. Find something that drives her and use that as a training tool. I'm wondering about her discipline and obedience techniques??? She's trained one other SAR dog so I think she knows what she's doing. Her pup has the breeding but I also reminded her that her mother didn't really take off until she was about 10-12 months. Her father is a AFTC titled dog. Any help would be welcomed.


"I work with her almost every morning and evening. We have had her training off and on leash since she was little. But recently her off-leash behavior can only be described as ADD. I am having the worst time trying to get her to concentrate on ME when she is off leash. I am going back to basics again to bring her up to the off-leash point again. I am also starting some private lessons with a trainer to see if we can pinpoint where the issues are. Is it me? Is it her? etc...

I also don't see a definitive food or toy drive. This is really important for a SAR dog.

She totally enjoys retrieving the ball and playing with her tug toys with us, but can leave either if something more "interesting" grabs her attention. The same with working for food rewards.

Re: treats, I have tried roast beef, steak, chicken breast, ham, hot dogs, commercial treats, and dog foods. she responds basically the same to all of them. She likes them, and will work for them while on-leash and do what is asked for them, but she's not "driven" by them, and will blow the treat off to do other things she wants to do while off-leash."

Thank you for your help.
 
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#2 ·
WFGG,

I train search and rescue. You gave *exactly* the right advice -- work at the dog's pace, don't overtrain or burn out!

At 6 months, you *hope* to see some signs of very strong drive in a dog, but that isn't always the case. And I've seen some that will show good drive one week, then be ADD the next and vice versa.

I would approach it the way I think most of you woult approach a pre-basics FT/HT dog -- if you go to a new environment, and the dog is more interested in smelling the ground and chasing the plastic bag blowing across the field than working, then keep the dog on a rope and keep it on task. Be happy, happy. Encourage. Leave the dog wanting more. If off-leash obedience is not working, then keep the dog on leash. Although I wouldn't encourage her to get too tough with the dog yet. Typically in SAR we don't use the level of force that is acceptable in FT/HT training -- I'm not going to defend that statement -- that's a whole other discussion -- it's just the way it is for a lot of reasons.

She should be working this dog as a puppy -- short sessions, very enthusiastic, leave it wanting more. That's all.

Unfortunately, not all dogs are cut out to be SAR dogs -- even well bred, high drive FT/HT dogs. It's a similar skill set, but just different enough that sometimes the breeding doesn't cross over. If it doesn't work out, it's nothing that she did wrong (necessarily) or a fault in your kennel as a breeder. Even the DoD detection dog programs at places like Lackland Air Force Base, where they've done extensive research and selectively bred for detection (SAR is just a kind of detection, like narcotics detection or bomb detection, except the dog is searching for human scent) only achieve roughtly a 50% success rate.

If she wants some contact info of SAR trainers who have specific experience with goldens, have her PM me and I'll try to help out. I'm a lab SAR handler, myself! (though I have to admit I do have some pointy-eared breed work in SAR work, also)

Vickie
 
#3 ·
I second what Taylormade said....
Give the pup time to be a pup. I handle a K9 for a living and you rarely see one younger then 2-3 yrs even being started, except for OB and bonding. My currnet partner is a 3 yr old Chessy trained as a single purpose narcotic dog, although we are just now teaching him tracking/ searching. When he certifys in that he will be used for lost kids, hikers etc.

Your client needs to really slow down and let the pup have a life and it should all work out.
E
 
G
#4 · (Edited)
For me, it sounds like she's expecting a lot and getting impatient -- for a 6 month old pup -- a time at which you typically just start to see a dog learn to focus and concentrate on its work IF not a little later...

I trained SAR for about four years. My dog WAS collar conditioned -- and under much better control than any other SAR dog I ever saw... She was about 13 mos when we started the training and we blew threw it. To that point, she had been trained for retriever work and I think she was handling when we started SAR, can't remember. I NEVER used food or toys to get her to work, she JUST WORKED.

Others in my group did use food and toys... I find that, like other training disciplines, there can be people that are overboard, overzealous and piling too much on the dog. Food, treats, commotion flying in every direction. Not just letting the dog work and enjoying its work.

Emmie (my SAR dog) was VERY difficult in the yard. She did enjoy field work, but it wasn't like she was the most overly driven dog. However, SAR work... She'd go nuts for it. She just loved it. I didn't need a toy or treat -- although I did throw her a bumper when she found someone. That was never what drove her... It was because she just LOVED to find people... (My point with this is that they don't have to be a perfect dog to do well -- they just need to want to do it).

I think sometimes people get caught up in all the "trappings" that they forget to just relax and let the dog have a good time and let it all unfold NATURALLY. Versus running around, screeching and dancing with a bunch of toys and treats (sorry, but this drives me nuts).

As far as what's standard in the SAR community... I went to seminars, national conferences, etc. In one classroom of about 100+ people, they asked who trained with an electric collar and I think I was the only one that raised my hand -- and didn't mind doing it -- at least I felt like I was the only one. Because I got the NASTIEST comments from people sitting directly by me. I didn't care because I had a dog that laid happily at my feet playing with a stuffed gorilla, went all over the convention center with me off lead (up and down escalators, etc.) and had a GREAT time doing it. I would gladly collar condition another SAR dog in the event I do it again...

I would find a group that has an INTELLIGENT approach to dog training... I met a lot of loopy people in my short years in SAR, with out of control dogs, dogs that they actually triggered for indications (with or without realizing it). Now, there were lots of awesome dogs and great trainers...

And, I was just out at the Auburn Canine Detection Center a few months ago... That place is awesome and the guy that runs their training program is super. In fact, they have had interest from some of their clients as far as having dogs force fetched, collar conditioned, etc. They are very intersted in using CC'ing and other retriever training methods (I know CC'ing isn't just for retrievers) in developing detection dogs. I really liked his style and was glad to see someone with some sense running such a great program. We got to spend an hour or so watching them train the dogs and the timing, style and challenge/help/reward/correct type stuff followed almost exactly the type of things we do here. It was pretty cool to watch and a pleasant surprise... I really enjoyed it...

Oh, I digress... I WOULD be concerned with what sounds like a lack of patience with what is still a PUPPY!!! "almost every morning and evening" pretty much explains it for me -- dogs, esp puppies -- need a break. She's probably bored to death with it because she's being "trained" too much...

I guess that's the bottom line. :)
 
#5 · (Edited)
Kristie,

Just FYI, when I said that many SAR people don't use the same level of force that is common in HT/FT, I didn't mean that SAR dogs shouldn't be CC'd. I have three SAR dogs, for different disciplines. The two pointy ears (a GSD and a Belgian Malinois) are CC'd and wear their collars every time they work (wilderness dogs). The third is CC'd, but doesn't wear the collar regularly because he is a FEMA disaster dog and they are required to work "naked" - a collar of any type is snag/strangulation hazard in a disaster environment. Plus he is such a toy/bumper FREAK that withholding his reward is more of a correction than anything I could ever do with a collar. he is truly a freak of nature. More importantly, as you said, he loves his job -- he is a joy to watch. And any dog that doesnt' have good obedience skills is a liability in the field.

As you said - there are a lot of kooks out there in volunteer SAR. But like with hunting dogs, there are different levels of training. There are the local kooks, the somewhat knowledgeable semi-pros that have been at it a long time, and the pros. The trick is knowing the difference -- in HT/FT and SAR.

Vickie
 
G
#6 ·
Kristie,

Just FYI, when I said that many SAR people don't use the same level of force that is common in HT/FT, I didn't mean that SAR dogs shouldn't be CC'd. I have three SAR dogs, for different disciplines. The two pointy ears (a GSD and a Belgian Malinois) are CC'd and wear their collars every time they work (wilderness dogs). The third is CC'd, but doesn't wear the collar regularly because he is a FEMA disaster dog and they are required to work "naked" - a collar of any type is snag/strangulation hazard in a disaster environment. Plus he is such a toy/bumper FREAK that withholding his reward is more of a correction than anything I could ever do with a collar. he is truly a freak of nature. More importantly, as you said, he loves his job -- he is a joy to watch. And any dog that doesnt' have good obedience skills is a liability in the field.

As you said - there are a lot of kooks out there in volunteer SAR. But like with hunting dogs, there are different levels of training. There are the local kooks, the somewhat knowledgeable semi-pros that have been at it a long time, and the pros. The trick is knowing the difference -- in HT/FT and SAR.

Vickie
I know YOU didn't feel that way, but your post did trigger that response because of all the flack I got at that one NASAR conference. It was so funny. I couldn't believe people would have the gall to turn around in their seat and literally scoff at me in the middle of the conference while my HAPPY, CALM dog was lying down at my feet...

I've been out of it for about 8 years now and I look at some websites and see so much has changed and training areas have improved. I wish I had time to do it again... I'm strongly considering doing narcotics and explosives detection because I love that work and can do it with a lot fewer resources and much less space and time than you need for SAR. And the dogs seem to love it just as much. There's something about them operating independently -- much akin to running just marks and not blinds -- and they just really love it.

-K
 
#8 ·
Ditto with Kristie and Vickie, I think 6 mos is pretty young to be asking as much as WFGG's client is expecting to get.

I too was on a SAR team, I'm NASAR SARTECH II and III, and was working one of the labs on trailing, and another older lab on cadaver work.

The people on our team that had puppies worked on obedience, but there wasn't a lot of heavy duty work until they were much older. For the most basic 'entry-level' canine certification that NASAR offers, the dogs have to be minimum 12 months. Vickie and Kristie describe an appropriate regime well. A lot of the dogs can't stand the pressure, and it's a different kind of pressure than HT/FT. Whenever we did field exercises and training mock searches we had to keep the dogs upbeat. Even more so when we were called in on real-life situations, especially those that dragged out over days.

I've been out of it for several years, but, WFGG, I would advise your client that she's trying to do too much too soon with a 6 month old pup. Also, sometimes that prey drive takes time. My now 4 yo blm couldn't care less about retrieving when he was a pup. I thought I was going to end up with a very sweet, very handsome couch potato. Then somewhere around 7-8 months, the little retrieve light bulb went on, seemingly out of nowhere and he's a retrieving nut. One of my best.

(And boy oh boy, Vickie, do I know where you're coming from on local kooks.... there's a few around here that would make your hair stand on end....)
 
#9 ·
Kristie: I have a cadaver dog that is FF'd and CC'd whose also got one leg on her SH. Her reward is a Shutzhund tug that when she latches on to it, I can swing her on over my head she loves it so much. But, she's got a softer mouth when it comes to retrieving ducks than my wilderness dog who was never FF'd or CC'd. So I am with you on the e-collar training. I've got my replacement wilderness SAR dog at the trainers right now for FF and CC and I am a complete convert to the e-collar.


Kathleen
 
#10 ·
If you would like to download (free) a disaster search dog training manual go to www.duckhillkennels.com - click on disaster search dogs - scroll to bottom of page below the video clips. This manual has worked fairly well at producing certified FEMA disaster search dogs.

Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com
 
#11 · (Edited)
Good Afternoon All,
I am WFGG's client. He has been gracious enough to share this list with me. I want to thank you all for your input and opinions. I did want to let you all know that the reason I was stressing about my puppy's performance was due to the expectations of the Senior Trainer of my SAR group, not my own. She was the one pushing and telling me that my 6 month old puppy was not performing up to par for a SAR candidate of her age.
Due to your input, my own opinions, and my puppy's own drives, and maturity levels at this time, I have pulled us from the formal SAR training program for a few months. I will continue to train her with the focus being to return to formal SAR training at a later date. She loves playing hide and seek, she loves to play fetch with a ball, and she absolutely adores climbing up onto anything. When she has matured a bit more and has a rock solid level of obedience, we will go on back.
Again thank you all for putting my mind at ease. I will continue to read this list on a regular basis. Feel free to contact me if you like.
 
#14 ·
"Are all S & R dogs FEMA certified in the US?"

No, most SAR dogs are not FEMA certified (you want to talk politics- the retriever world has nothing on FEMA!) FEMA dogs are Urban SAR dogs, trained to work in disaster areas which include a lot of collapsed buildings and other hazards. For this reason, FEMA dogs are required to do a stay and bark, meaning when they find a LIVE person, they stay with the subject, barking until the handler can get to the dog. This way the dog is not traveling back and forth over dangerous rubble to bring the handler back to the subject.

Most states have their own requirements, some better than others. In my state, Virginia, I have to belong to a team that has a memorandum of understanding with the Virginia Department of Emergency Management. I also have to certify to their standards. We have standards for Wilderness, HRD both land and water, and are working on standards for first responders (basically Urban SAR dogs that can get to a disaster before FEMA teams can be deployed). Through VDEM, teams from Virginia were deployed to New Orleans after Katrina for body recovery, to tornados in SE Va, multiple police cases in Va, and countless lost hikers, hunters, despondents and drowning victims (the Shenandoah River doesn't look that deadly, but she doesn't like being disrespected...).

Hope that helps a little.

Kathleen
 
#15 ·
Kathleen thankyou for your response. It certainly helps a little, with a little confusion resulting also. The only Australian based knowledge I have to due to, two friends having the only Internationally accedited (by testers from the UK - Scotland and Wales) private S & R dogs. They returned last night from a S & R "do" in New Zealand, so I try to further appease my interest with further contact. My friends certainly use intersting positive training methods. Also their knowledge on dogs scenting capability intrigues me.
 
#16 ·
PM jydog he trains for that. He lives in Michigan. I was speaking with him and he highly recommended Angie at Tioga ?? Kennels or Retrievers????? Here in Denton,TX. I had a pup from a breeding he wanted. He tok the dog for a couple of weeks to evaluate him. Said he has to much GO! for S.A.R. SO I got him back :) Then we move to TX and............. he has 3-legs ow :-((( but anyways

Jim is a really nice guy. Has a MH(?) male and is working on their GRHRCH. Has a couple of other dogs last i heard at various points.
 
#18 · (Edited)
He didn't fail any test. He aced them all.

Jim wants a FEMA Level 1 dog. I think level 1 is the highest? if not he wants the Highest. He said there is not one in SE MI.

Part of the training process is Agility stuff. I.e going through tunnels, od stairs then down ramos, see-saw's, wlaking across a 2 X 12 betweeen 2 platforms X' in the air.

When it cam to the stairs he raced to the top and stopped, He started across the board but turned back, to wait for Jim, They got About 1/2 way across, and he was still a little shaky and uncertain. Jim threw a bumper for him(reward) he jumped off the board, about 5' in the air, hit the ground running and came up the ramp, which they were to go down, with the bumper in his mouth.

While doing the tunnel he would go in one side and on the way out Jim would throw the bumper for him. Jim stopped to helkp another trainer with something and the dog was doing laps through the tunnel. To get his bumper.

There was more. But basically jim said the didn't think and solve a problem. Basically "full speed ahead, dam the torpedos" mentality.

Jim saw a problem coming. The problem he saw was trying to get the dog to slow down and think MORE. He didn't want the dog searching a collapsed building and run off the side. THere were more scenarios Jim gave why he said he had to much go.

He got shot last year. we ended up having to amputate his left front leg, AFTER we had pins put in it trying to save it. He don't care. He can still do all of the stuff he did before. Just a touch slower.

I think some of it might have been me. I have a Yellow Female, got her @ 6-7 weeks. I stared her @ 5.5 - 6 months of age. We did the FF, CC, started the Handling stuff etc. Well she doesn't really have a personality until I bring out the training gear. She is just there :-( I din;t buy her to be there I bought her to be a companion. Don't get me wrong she'll do anyhting I ask her to with enthusiasm. SO when I got this guy @ 11 weeks old. I worked Basic OB, HERE, SIT, STAY from day 1. Played retreiving and just let him be a dog. Figuring @ 1 year I would Start the Formal Training. I met up with Jim and left him with him when he was @ 9 months? old?? Again I am not sure if that had any influence on it or not.

Sorry this is so long. I hope I answered your Question. If not please reply and I will answer more.

Kyle Ruschmann
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
Hi All,
My Puppy Maddie actually "thinks" alot about what she is asked to do, if she is concentrating on the task at hand and not being ADD. When I introduce her to some new contraption, or noise, or obstacle she plunks her butt down and watches it for a minute or two before coming up to it. The garbage truck took a couple of minutes longer to evaluate, in her opinion, when she was 8-10 weeks old. Then if I ask her to come near the "new" thing she will, as long as I give her that time to "think" about it, or look it over. Not sure if this will be a good thing or bad thing going forward. We'll have to see how it develops as it matures.

I have decided to send her to a trainer for a couple weeks to work on her off-leash obedience and off-leash focus. Some due to the feedback I have gotten, and some due to the fact I am having to lighten up on her training as I broke a bone in my foot and tore a shoulder/back muscle, so am not able to be as physical/active as I need to be to keep her focused. And to top it all off she sliced open her pad while swimming in the pond last Saturday and she is on minimal activity until it heals. It's not been a good couple weeks :(

Mostly we just play retriever games at home and I have her climbing the obstacles I have constructed at home. I have a plank up on cinder blocks so we can "play" her bench game. And I have one end of the bottom of an oak futon frame (looks kinda like a ladder but the rungs are flat and closer together) resting on top of a 2 foot tall trunk, which has a plank going down the other side. And she has an agility tube to go through.
just to keep her paw in, so to speak :)
 
#22 · (Edited)
hi all,

In urban search and rescue, also called USAR or "disaster dogs" it is a fine line and a personal choice among handlers how much drive they want in their dogs. I started out with a GSD who would only go so far in the very difficult environment described of twisted steel, broken glass, crushed concrete, etc. I finally washed her out because I actually had nightmares of standing at the bottom of a pile (rubble pile) like the world trade center, a hundred somber-faced rescue personnel behind me watching and depending on me to find their fallen brothers as I pointed my dog up and gave the "search" command...and my dog wouldn't go because the pile was too daunting. too challenging.

I choose to work an absolutely crazy, no-thought-for-his-own-self-preservation lab now. I take it upon myself to work VERY hard on control and his directional ability (handling) and emergency stops. He has taken a few falls on the rubble, but nothing serious. Had to have a few stitches on the day of his FEMA certification test, and he about gave me a heart attack once when he leaped across a three-foot void onto the rim of a cement culvert, about eight feet across and standing on end. The edge he landed on was only about three or four inches wide. The open center of the upright culvert was about 12 feet down, with only concrete waiting at the bottom. He actually managed to jump across the void onto the rim of the vertical culvert (apparently planning to jump on across - who knows what goes on in a dog's mind). But found the span too wide. He was going full speed, but managed to get all four paws on the four-inch rim of that culvert, do a 180 turn, and leap back across the three foot void to the pile.

These dogs are incredibly agile. We work VERY hard not to put them in situations where their lives are at risk.

There has only been one FEMA dog killed in the line of duty. It was one of my teammates, a Texas dog close to retirement, and in training one day, she stepped on/jumped on some black plastic sheeting on a second story roof. I believe she thought it was solid beneath. It wasn't.

The only other death I know of of a USAR dog was heat related -- a training/handler issue, not about drive.

That is why we are tested and must certify on more than just search ability. We must have CONTROL of our dogs at all times.

That said, choosing between difficulty of control and degree of drive...I will take the crazy high drive dogs every time. Control can be trained - it just takes a better handler. Desire cannot be trained. I have seen far too many dogs that I don't believe will get the job done in the "real deal" of a disaster. They will wimp out. Is this the dog you want searching for your trapped family member?

If someone turns down a SAR dog because it has too much drive...please send contact info for that dog to me. I can find it a working home any day of the week.

Just my opinion,
Vickie
 
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