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Thread: Judging inline marks?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Kevin WI's Avatar
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    Default Judging inline marks?

    I've discussed this at length with co-judges and handlers alike.
    When setting up a test, be it masters, finished etc., if you are trying to evaluate the dogs marking ability, why or why not set up in-line marks?

    There are two camps that I've discussed this at length:
    On one side there are those that say if you are testing a dogs marking ability, why would you set up a scenario that is intended to wipe out the memory of one of the marks? Are you testing the dogs marking ability or are you testing the dogs ability to overcome an obvious diversion? Just because it happens in true hunting situations, doesn't make it an effective evaluation technique for natural marking ability.

    There is the other side that feels that any dogs marking ability can be evaluated fairly as long as it has the time to clearly see each mark, no matter where it is placed or what obstacles lie between the line and the fall area (whether it be suction, diversion, or physical obstacles).

    Honestly, from the people I've talked to, the results were all over the map as far as opinions went and experience level. I see it set up at many hunt tests, more-so at AKC than HRC. At the HRC Judges/Handlers seminar they recommend NOT setting up in-line marks.

    Just wondering for the sake of discussion, with which camp you sit?
    Last edited by Kevin WI; 07-20-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member okvet's Avatar
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    I attended a HRC Judges seminar last spring and I don't remember in-line marks not being recommended. I have no problem with in-line marks--heck had one at the last master test I ran. A good dog as long as he/she can truely see the mark well should be able to run inline marks---I believe there are other testing scenerios that wipe out marks tougher than an inline--a few I have seen are picking up a diversion after the go bird--which seems to be very common now in finshed tests. In the master class it seems I see more tests where a tough triple is thrown--the go bird is picked up--then have to run a blind after the go bird then pick up the two remaining marks. I believe this is a little tougher on the dog then a nice inline---but I have no problem with inline and a dog competing at the finshed/master level should be able to complete the task.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Sue Kiefer's Avatar
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    IMHTO,
    In-lines are a concept type mark that has to be taught like ma/pa's,etc........
    I personally think that it's rather an eliminatation type mark rather than peer marking per say.The tighter the in-lines the more difficult the test/trial.
    Again it's a concept type set-up.
    My 2cents on a Sunday am
    Sue

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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginger69 View Post
    IMHTO,
    In-lines are a concept type mark that has to be taught like ma/pa's,etc........
    I personally think that it's rather an eliminatation type mark rather than peer marking per say.The tighter the in-lines the more difficult the test/trial.
    Again it's a concept type set-up.
    My 2cents on a Sunday am
    Sue
    Sue, not trying to pick on you, but…duh! Yes you have to teach it, but then again what didn’t you have to teach your dog. Yes it makes a test/trail harder, but when you are running AA/Open or Masters one would expect the test and or trails to be progressively harder than previously levels. How boring would it be to go to a test/trail every weekend and run 3 marks all separated by 90 degrees?

    I have not heard it discouraged at a seminar. Marking is marking be it three marks spread widely apart or in lines. I understand that some feel it is trying to confuse a dog….well yes sort of. I want to see a dog mark if the bird falls behind a log, rock, across a ditch, in the cover or……..behind another mark. If the dog can mark he can mark in lines as well as any other. People love to bitch about things they don’t train of or that their dogs don’t do well, but that does not make them an unfair evaluation of marking abilities. If the dog can see it, it better mark it regardless of where it falls.
    Do I set it up as an elimination? No I don’t set anything up as an elimination, eliminating dogs never comes into my mind in a set up. Do I like to set it up? You bet. It is a scenario that occurs often in hunting and is a very legitimate marking set up. This also goes to the above statement that people who don’t train for a scenario like to bitch about it a call it an "elimination test" or a "concept mark" because their dog can’t do it because they never work on it. Hear the same thing with poison birds, diversions, breaking birds….whatever it is someone’s dog is not good at it, it becomes unfair, a poor scenario, or an elimination set-up.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

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    Senior Member Kevin WI's Avatar
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    ok...not taking sides...but let me ask you this bbg. Are you now testing the dogs trained ability or are you testing the dogs natural marking ability when you throw out a concept like this?
    Some in camp 1 feel that this is a test against a given standard...and you should be evaluating the dogs natural marking ability and that evaluating trained ability comes while evaluating the blind(s). But at a trial this would be considered ok, because you are actually trying to evaluate trained ability on marking and make one stand out from the crowd.
    Last edited by Kevin WI; 07-20-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flowageboy View Post
    ok...not taking sides...but let me ask you this bbg. Are you now testing the dogs trained ability or are you testing the dogs natural marking ability when you throw out a concept like this?
    Some in camp 1 feel that this is a test against a given standard...and you should be evaluating the dogs natural marking ability and that evaluating trained ability comes while evaluating the blind(s). But at a trial this would be considered ok, because you are actually trying to evaluate trained ability on marking and make one stand out from the crowd.
    I consider it a marking test period. Dogs do mark naturally to some extent, but think about it….all marks are taught to a dog from the day you start running walking singles for you puppy. Doubles are not “natural” nor are triples; you have to teach a dog to run multiples. You have to teach most dogs to run just about every type of mark you throw. They ability to remember where a bird lands is somewhat natural, but no dog goes from picking up a 30 yard puppy mark thrown on the soccer field to picking up multiple marks in cover at 100 yards. This is why we train with stickmen, white coats, exposed bird boys… Do you teach your dogs reentries? Do you de-cheat them? Is a test with a reentry a “concept test”? Look at it like this, a golf pro can teach you to drive a golf ball
    (let’s remember that Tiger has more natural ability than any golfer ever, and he uses a swing coach). Now you can hit a ball off a tee and you have the natural ability to do, but if you want to hit a fade or add distance you must work on that, it takes natural ability, but also practice (or training if you like). To me marks and training are one in the same, any retriever (almost) can mark, but they must be trained, or at least exposed to the literally thousands of marking scenarios they may come across.
    Your use of natural ability is kind of confusing because I have yet to see any dog run a master, or even senior set-up that was not trained to mark multiples. If it were a natural skill there would be no reason to start with singles, just toss as many birds as you see fit and the natural abilities of the dog will then lead it to pick them up. No I fall in the camp the natural abilities must be enhanced through training
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

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    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Threadjack: I hear "in line" used 3 diffrent ways very often. One is "over/under" marks, one is a series of marks thrown in a line at about 45 degrees, first long, second shorter, third shortest, and the other is "side by side" marks, like a line of stickmen stretched across a goal line. It gets hard sometimes in threads like this to figure out which "version" is being discussed. Threadjack over.

    I have been to 3 HRC seminars in the last 2 years, and have not heard either derivitive of "in lines" mentioned. I see over/under's hunting all the time.
    Last edited by GulfCoast; 07-20-2008 at 01:48 PM.

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    The only problem I have with in lines is if the short bird of the in line is first ( breaking bird), a bird out of line is thrown second (right or left of the in line) and the long bird of the in line is thrown last as the go bird without any duck calls and the gun is shot while the bird is in flight. I have seen this set up at a master test. This concept does not allow the dog adequate time to mark the fall of the go bird, when sent he will almost always pick up the short in line bird first. You pick up the out of line bird second and then try to send the dog back thru the short bird for the long in line he had very little time to mark. Makes for a tough series

    Richard

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    Senior Member Kevin WI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WME View Post
    Threadjack: I hear "in line" used 3 diffrent ways very often. One is "over/under" marks, one is a series of marks thrown in a line at about 45 degrees, first long, second shorter, third shortest, and the other is "side by side" marks, like a line of stickmen stretched across a goal line. It gets hard sometimes in threads like this to figure out which "version" is being discussed. Threadjack over.

    I have been to 3 HRC seminars in the last 2 years, and have not heard either derivitive of "in lines" mentioned. I see over/under's hunting all the time.
    Over/under...yep...same thing....I've attended the same as far as Judges/handler seminars...last one in March we went over in-line's in great detail as something to avoid setting up...same with rapport(sp?) doubles.
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    Senior Member Uncle Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbullgator View Post
    I consider it a marking test period. Dogs do mark naturally to some extent, but think about it….all marks are taught to a dog from the day you start running walking singles for you puppy. Doubles are not “natural” nor are triples; you have to teach a dog to run multiples. You have to teach most dogs to run just about every type of mark you throw. They ability to remember where a bird lands is somewhat natural, but no dog goes from picking up a 30 yard puppy mark thrown on the soccer field to picking up multiple marks in cover at 100 yards. This is why we train with stickmen, white coats, exposed bird boys… Do you teach your dogs reentries? Do you de-cheat them? Is a test with a reentry a “concept test”? Look at it like this, a golf pro can teach you to drive a golf ball
    (let’s remember that Tiger has more natural ability than any golfer ever, and he uses a swing coach). Now you can hit a ball off a tee and you have the natural ability to do, but if you want to hit a fade or add distance you must work on that, it takes natural ability, but also practice (or training if you like). To me marks and training are one in the same, any retriever (almost) can mark, but they must be trained, or at least exposed to the literally thousands of marking scenarios they may come across.
    Your use of natural ability is kind of confusing because I have yet to see any dog run a master, or even senior set-up that was not trained to mark multiples. If it were a natural skill there would be no reason to start with singles, just toss as many birds as you see fit and the natural abilities of the dog will then lead it to pick them up. No I fall in the camp the natural abilities must be enhanced through training

    This is a DY-NO-MITE post, Cory. Couldn't have stated it better.

    It is all too frequent that handlers that don't train these various concepts, are quick to find fault with them, even tho they ARE what hunters face every season. Why would we not set up a test that shows us if a finished/master level dog has these capabilities?

    If your dog doesn't grasp this at a given test, then you have learned what additional training you need to do.

    UB
    When the one you love becomes a memory, that memory becomes a treasure.

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