GDG Death Penalty/Abortion Thought

[Stylesl]

On another thread there have been many well written posts about the above topics. I thought the reflections of a family member about the two was unique-

Is there another piece we are missing when discussing abortion rights and/or the death penalty?
The other day I had an enlightening conversation about these two issues with an older family member who has a value system that I try to emulate as much as possible-and usually fail. In summary-

Abortion-he believes that women should have that choice if needed. This from a man who rarely misses church and has a strong spiritual faith.
Death Penalty-against it. He made it very clear he could pull the trigger if someone hurt us or other family members. But as he said, "That doesn't mean I am right."

I asked him-how could you be for abortion and not for the death penalty? He said they(the gov't) will never execute a rich man and that rich women can afford to pay a doctor if needed. The poor cannot hire the top legal teams to defend themselves. They don't have access to private doctors who would perform an illegal abortion if abortion was made illegal.

I have simplified his thoughts and our discussion but it has made me reflect more about these two topics.

L

[Joe S.]

On another thread there have been many well written posts about the above topics. I thought the reflections of a family member about the two was unique-

Is there another piece we are missing when discussing abortion rights and/or the death penalty?
The other day I had an enlightening conversation about these two issues with an older family member who has a value system that I try to emulate as much as possible-and usually fail. In summary-

Abortion-he believes that women should have that choice if needed. This from a man who rarely misses church and has a strong spiritual faith.
Death Penalty-against it. He made it very clear he could pull the trigger if someone hurt us or other family members. But as he said, "That doesn't mean I am right."

I asked him-how could you be for abortion and not for the death penalty? He said they(the gov't) will never execute a rich man and that rich women can afford to pay a doctor if needed. The poor cannot hire the top legal teams to defend themselves. They don't have access to private doctors who would perform an illegal abortion if abortion was made illegal.

I have simplified his thoughts and our discussion but it has made me reflect more about these two topics.

L

I think it should give a lot of people a reason to reflect.

Thanks For Sharing Regards,

Joe S.

[john fallon]

I asked him-how could you be for abortion and not for the death penalty? He said they(the gov't) will never execute a rich man and that rich women can afford to pay a doctor if needed. The poor cannot hire the top legal teams to defend themselves. They don't have access to private doctors who would perform an illegal abortion if abortion was made illegal.

Since that disparity does not address the underlying moral dilemma
The follow up question could have been ........Should a rich murder ever be executed?????????

And with abortion............Again we are not talking legality here we are talking morality.
john

[YardleyLabs]

Lisa,

You could easily have been talking to my father, a fellow East Tennessean.

[subroc]

...Abortion-he believes that women should have that choice if needed...

If Needed...What does that mean?

Have you read Roe v Wade? I have found that most haven’t. Here is a link. Do you agree with Roe? Do you think it is restrictive, allows too much latitude, not restrictive enough, should be modified, should be struck down, what do you think?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113

Should late term abortions be allowed?

How late is too late?

When Lisa M. Montgomery murdered Bobbi Jo Stinnett by cutting the 8-month fetus from her womb and the child survived it appeared to illustrate that a fetus is at term or at least can survive at 8-months. Is an abortion of that fetus murder or just an abortion?

Should abortions be allowed after the time of quickening (viability)?

Does choice mean no restrictions?

[Joe S.]

If Needed...What does that mean?

Have you read Roe v Wade? I have found that most haven’t. Here is a link. Do you agree with Roe? Do you think it is restrictive, allows too much latitude, not restrictive enough, should be modified, should be struck down, what do you think?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113

Should late term abortions be allowed?

How late is too late?

When Lisa M. Montgomery murdered Bobbi Jo Stinnett by cutting the 8-month fetus from her womb and the child survived it appeared to illustrate that a fetus is at term or at least can survive at 8-months. Is an abortion of that fetus murder or just an abortion?

Should abortions be allowed after the time of quickening (viability)?

Does choice mean no restrictions?

You First Regards,

Joe S.

[luvalab]

On the inequities of the death penalty: I decided against supporting the death penalty many years ago. It wasn't a personal situation, just news I was following, but I was young, and it felt very personal then.

As I remember understanding a Supreme Court case at the time (and I grant that this is synopsized and fuzzy...): a murderer had appealed his death sentence on the grounds that if his victim had been black rather than white he would most likely not have received a death sentence, and that the law seemingly considered a white life more important than a black life, and he was being punished in a manner which was unfair--he did not kill his victim based on her race, but he was being sentenced to death because of her race. The Supreme Court basically said, Well, you've shown us impressive data and that indeed seems to be true, but your sentence is in keeping with possible punishments for this murder under your state's law, so you're out of luck. He was indeed executed. I believe this was Georgia; it would have been the early 90's.

I'm assuming, which isn't good, but so be it, that one could substitute poor or Hispanic or immigrant or some other man-made categorization with black and find similar dynamics at work.

Now, I don't say the murderer in question wasn't horrible scum, but the argument made an impression on me. I decided that until the law saw all human life as of equal value, I would not support the taking of a life by the machinations of the law. I haven't seen any evidence so far to make me change my mind. "The law" is a man-made construct and subject to his weaknesses... If man's government were perfect and peoples' minds weren't clouded by prejudice and emotion, well, I might reconsider.

Anyway, just my perspective. It's one of the few moral decisions of my 20's that have stood the test of time...

[subroc]

Joe

Thanks for the invite, I expect Stylesl was really interested in starting an abortion debate on a retriever BB. I will let Stylesl take the lead on this one. However, I provided this series of questions to get this simple discusion on its way.

[Stylesl]

Ok a little confused

John-"Should a rich murder ever be executed?????????"

subroc-I think the questions you ask are good ones. I will think on them.
As I originally stated, I was reading posts written on these issues on another thread and yes, did decide to start this one from their responses.

As always-no one has to click on any post if you don't want to read it or participate.

L

[Troopers Mom]

I think we need to be very careful when deciding what laws should be passed and what shouldn't. We are losing rights all the time and most of us don't even realize it. One issue is conquered, and soon another is taken on. No matter what I personally would do in a given situation, I still believe in an individual's choice for what they feel is best for them. If this type of thinking continues, none of us will even have to make decisions for ourselves. They will all be made for us.

An example which is extreme but did actually happen. A very unique shopping mall was built in Gilbert. Many large stores as well as boutique type stores but it was not an enclosed mall. It was like a little town with little streets, lamp posts, parallel parking, etc. One store was Victoria's Secret. They had a very tasteful sign that stood above the door and extended upward to the roof. It was of a woman wearing a new line of bra. Two really really tight-a** pruds made such a stink about it to the town council, that they forced the store to remove the sign. My God, that is what they sell in that store. This type of thinking really scares me. We are losing rights and those who are so ademant about controlling someone else's rights will one day have many of their rights to decide removed as well.

Arleen