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Thread: Excellent (free) video clips on Force Fetch without the force (max. 2 week process)

  1. #1
    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Default Excellent (free) video clips on Force Fetch without the force (max. 2 week process)

    Here is a free website with a lot of good positive dog training stuff. The Positive Fetch part is very good. It is in a series of very short (60 sec.) video clips. Here is the link:

    http://www.companionsforlife.net/Retrieve_members1.html

    Best Regards,
    Robert Milner
    www.duckhillkennels.com

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    Cool, Robert. Thanks!

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    Ok, I have to ask a few things. Bear in mind that I have used a clicker, I did teach "Fetch" using a clicker on my first dog before he was FF. Since then I have taught fetch and delivery to hand without a clicker and without force, also before FF.

    I am all for the least use of force. I did explore about every aspect of your website that I could Robert. But, I am a little cautious. Before my first dog and before I knew what I know now, I was against FF and force and all of that. Since then, I have come to understand it, have FF two dogs, and neither of them hated it, had a bad attitude, or anything like that. I would still love to have that ideal of ALMOST purely positive, but again, I'm cautious.

    Here are my questions. What does this guy, or you, do when the dog refuses, spits, rolls, chomps, chews, etc?? What's your correction for that? I would have loved to see the guy in the clips do this with a dog for the first time. I guess what I'm getting at are what do your enforcers become since obviously with FF you have the recourse of the ear pinch. Also, how does this translate for dogs that go on to casting and blind work, etc.?

    And here's just a little personal pet peeve, I would absolutely hate for my dog to be nosing my pocket for a treat every single time like that little dog did in the clips!

    Thanks,
    Kourtney
    Kiela
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    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Kourtney,

    I don't know anything about the guy. I just stumbled on the website and thought the training was excellent. Certainly the site is well done and the explanations are clearly presented. I think it is a good source of training info.

    As for refusals, I can only tell you my philosophy on it. When I get refusals, it is because I set up the training scenario improperly and asked the dog to do something for which I had not properly prepared him. Unfortunately I do screw up and generate refusals, but when I do I realize that it is not the dog choosing to refuse, it is me telling him to to something for which I had not prepared him. My preferred solution for refusals is to simplify the set up so that the dog is successful. Then come back tomorrow and do again, perhaps preceding with the simplified version so that I insure success.

    Best Regards,
    Robert Milner
    www.duckhillkennels.com

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    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Ok, I have to say something here, because it's right on point to a recent occurrence. I have trained all kinds of dogs, tracking, obedience, agiltiy and field. And have used this type of approach, along with a traditional FF, both ear pinch and toe hitch.

    Be cautious when you choose this method if you're looking at a master hunt test dog, a Q dog, or an All Age dog. Please note that the author's audience is for a companion dog. I have found that when using this type of training for heavy field copetition that your force will not last at 300 yards... or heavy daily training for AA competition. I just saw a dog that when bringing back the bird in an AA stake, stopped on its way back, and started flipping the bird in the water, etc. This was not the first time this had happened. It turns out that this dog was Forced with this type of obedience method. It has a huge hole in it's force program for the type of work it's being asked to do. The force it was taught cannot hold up to the rigors of the type of work it is being asked to do. The dog has not learned to handle the type of pressure that AA training and the like puts the dog under.

    So, while this is a very valid method, make sure you're picking it for the end result you are trying to achieve.
    Susan

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    Senior Member Jay Dufour's Avatar
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    Anything to get out of work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RemsBPJasper View Post
    Here are my questions. What does this guy, or you, do when the dog refuses, spits, rolls, chomps, chews, etc?? What's your correction for that? I would have loved to see the guy in the clips do this with a dog for the first time. I guess what I'm getting at are what do your enforcers become since obviously with FF you have the recourse of the ear pinch. Also, how does this translate for dogs that go on to casting and blind work, etc.?
    When I train -- no matter what the behavior -- the first step is to define what I want. I suppose, if there are common problems like you've listed, I can also list what I don't want, but really what it boils down to is that there is a specific definition of what I want and ANYTHING else is incorrect.

    So I teach and reinforce what I want. If something happens that I don't want, I don't reinforce it, and I do what I need to do to get a higher rate of reinforcement for what I do want. If the dog starts mouthing, rather than steadily holding, the object, I don't do rep after rep after rep where he's doing that. I'll drop back to a criteria where he was successfull, and then build again more gradually, building a stronger history of successful reps.

    I'm not sure what you mean about your question about casting and blinds work. Not sure how teaching a retrieve is related.

    I just saw a dog that when bringing back the bird in an AA stake, stopped on its way back, and started flipping the bird in the water, etc. This was not the first time this had happened.
    It seems that when I read of the problems people have, the most consistent thing I hear is that incorrect performances have occurred in the past, but people didn't address them then. An immutable rule of training -- and not just positive training -- is that each subsequent behavior in a sequence or chain reinforces the behavior(s) that came before it. So every time you let the dog complete an incorrect retrieve, you've reinforced a mistake.

    The problem wasn't the positive training for the retrieve. The problem was that he allowed the dog to reinforce mistakes.

    It's like creeping at the line. If you allow it, you're going to get more of it. If you don't want it, then you set your criteria and don't waver on it.

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    Robert,

    Thanks for your reply.

    Rainsmom,

    I guess what I'm getting at is my understanding is FF builds to casting and blindwork. When my dogs come off the table or out of FF, they are starting casting on "fetch." So are dogs that are positive retrieve conditioned going to extend their work out in the field? With a FF dog you can go out and pinch the ear if they refuse, if a positive retrieve conditioned dog refuses, you just back up a step?

    Just looking for clarification. I guess it seems too simple to me.

    Thanks,
    Kourtney
    Kiela
    Tigress Midnight Wind Stalker (pending)

    Remington's Black Powder Jasper - Jasper
    February 25, 2004 - March 24, 2006

    Boscoe
    March 15, 2006 - April 19, 2007
    http://boscoegrowsup.blogspot.com

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    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainsmom View Post
    It seems that when I read of the problems people have, the most consistent thing I hear is that incorrect performances have occurred in the past, but people didn't address them then. An immutable rule of training -- and not just positive training -- is that each subsequent behavior in a sequence or chain reinforces the behavior(s) that came before it. So every time you let the dog complete an incorrect retrieve, you've reinforced a mistake.

    The problem wasn't the positive training for the retrieve. The problem was that he allowed the dog to reinforce mistakes.

    You're talking about training, I'm talking about trialing when the wheels come off because the dog doesn't have the proper foundational background for the physical and mental pressure and the proper way to get out of it or handle it in general. Two different things.

    What are you going to to do at 200 yards during a FT when the dog starts playing with the bird... . get out your clicker?

    While it's a great concept and workable for a companion dog, it doesn't work in the higher stakes of Field Trialing or even Master tests.

    Been there, done that, seen it back fire too many times regards-
    Susan

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    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    I don't believe it is possible to train to advanced levels using only positive reinforcement. There may be that rare dog who could do it, but I have never owned, or seen one.

    If someone figures how to do it on a consistent basis, am willing to change my mind. So far, don't know anyone who has.

    The proof would be results/titles, otherwise it's just words and theory.

    I would like to see a comprehensive training program such as Lardys, outlining the steps, using purely positive reinforcement. Where is it????
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

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