RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

FIRST TIME TRAINER...FAQs....

3K views 17 replies 11 participants last post by  coopersmom08 
#1 ·
As a newbie trainer...I have to first say I love this forum! I no longer feel like I'm the first person to lock eyes with my pup and feel like saying "...I don't know, what do you want to do next?"* We are figuring it out together and I am always amazed at how smart my boy is despite my inexperience as a trainer!* Us newbies (or, at least - me, myself & I) have SO many questions... This is the most challenging - most addictive - thing I have ever done! And I am loving EVERY* (or almost every) minute of it!!* But, there are those questions.... SO - here's my first question: HOW do I -teach/stop/convey/stop - my boy "Cooper" from stopping just short of the bank on water retrieves to shake off?* He sometimes drops the dummy/bird to do this, but immediately picks it back up after shaking and delivers to hand.* Other times, he'll hold and shake off, then deliver to hand....* No e-collar training yet.* Used a check-cord... Advice appreciated!bhelton
 
#2 ·
Simplify the task.....

Meet him at the water's edge. Do not give him the option to drop the bird/bumper to shake. This may mean even stepping into the water (hip boots). Then slowly back from the water's edge and increase the difficulty of the task.

Hope that helps...

FOM
 
#3 ·
How old is the dog? Have you ff yet? If the dog has it's permanent teethe in, and you have not ff yet, that would be my first step. After that it is a matter of not allowing it to happen. It it is a young dog, I'd be right there to receive as soon as the dog gets out. Could also try running backwards after you have established the give to me, do not drop idea. They tend to want to chase after you, but be ready to receive quickly.

HRCH Missy SH
 
#4 ·
He's nine months old - but was almost six months old before I began really working with him (not because I am of the school of thought that a dog/pup needs to be that age before beginning, as some trainers I've met believe, but because it took me that long to get the nerve to try training him).

Two nights ago, I actually did stand at the edge of the water/in water a couple of inches and he didn't 'shake off' quite as often. So I'm hoping to build on this... He has always loved the water, but never liked getting water in his ears - which is why I think he wants to shake immediately?

Except for being a butthead every once in a while, his obedience is strong and I recently began ff. I didn't think it was going to go too smoothly - as I first tried the ear pinch method which accomplished nothing I wanted. That's when I decided to see if I could take an easier road and build on what he had been doing already. Let me back up for a second and say that he has always been exceptionally good at 'fetch it up' - no matter where the dummy/bird lay - and when he'd bring it to me and drop it at my feet, I made him pick it up (with the 'fetch it up' command) and stick it in my hand until I took it. This was purely accidental training. So ff has gone really, really well and teaching him to "hold" was a snap. (I give all the credit to the dog! He's really a smart guy!)

:confused: I'm thinking about running him in his first started hunt test tomorrow - but not sure if he's ready? Would/will the judge(s) mark off for him stopping and shaking off before delivering to hand? Also - can he deliver to hand, then be told to heel? I made the mistake of not enforcing him heeling with dummy/bird in mouth at the beginning. He'd deliver to hand and then I'd 'heel' him. Now, I'm having to work on correcting the habit I created... :(

Brandi (Cooper's Mom)
 
#5 ·
Brandi,

I would HIGHLY recommend not running him, I know, I know some people will say go for it but from experience - HTs teach bad habits, so you must choose your poison....

No started judges will not mark you down if he drops the bird, shakes and then picks it back up.....I would recommend if he does this, to keep your nerves in check and not issue a ton of commands you know he is not going to listen to. Try to keephim from dropping the bird, but if he does, just wait for him to shake and then tell him to fetch it up - but to stand there and repeat the comman over and over again is not a good thing and could possibly get you scored down....

Yes you can take the bird first and then make him heel.....

Just remember a dog who is perfoming at 100% in training may not perform 100% at a test.....good luck.

FOM
 
#6 ·
You said that you tried the ear pinch method but that didn't work. What method are you using? FF is about pressure and a dog learning how to get out of that pressure. That pressure can be ear pinch, toe hitch, etc. But there needs to be some kind of pressure that gets turned off when you get the desired result. Once this is established I would then transfer that pressure to the collar. Once that is going smoothly I would transfer from a dummy (or whatever your using) to birds. Once that is going smoothly you have taught your dog how to get out of the pressure you put on him for an undesirable response (such as dropping the bird when getting out of the water, while taking a crap, at heel, etc). Then when your dog comes out of the water and sets the bird down you can say firmly "fetch it up" and apply pressure (collar continuous). He/she will know how to get out of that pressure by picking the bird up (release pressure) and bring it to you.

I personally wouldn't test your dog until you are ready for the Senior/seasoned level. With a good dog you probably will get ribbons regardless. But this will only reward you for bad behavior. Keep training. Have fun. And remember nothing is ever taught at a tria/testl except bad habits. My .02
 
#7 ·
Are you following a training program?
 
#8 ·
A pro told me once that a dog that stops and drops the bird or shakes/relieves himself is a dog that doesn't know the "here" command yet. I had asked him a question about my dog mouthing bumpers as he came back.

I CC'd him to "here" ("here, nick, here")(he'd already been FF'd) and the problem was solved. He is now concentrating on "here"(getting back to me fast) and not on mouthing before he delivers to hand. After this it was just building on that that corrected all the other stuff like shaking, "airing", etc. or any other distraction from the job to be done. This worked for me.

BHB
 
#9 ·
I'm all about listening to experience - so I may not run him now. I want to make sure to not put too much on him - or me - too soon!

Yes, I am following a program of sorts - a combination of Wolters' methods and the 10-minute retriever method. I am taking each step - but also really paying attention to how Cooper responds to each. I think part of the training method has to dog-specific. (My husband has a 2 yr old blm started dog and they continue to work with the trainer. I decided to train Cooper myself because 1) I really wanted to learn and be the one to train him, and 2) because after watching the trainer work his dogs - I felt like something was missing in his training.. The one-on-one personal bond with the dog).

Albeit by unconventional method, Cooper is ff. Maybe he is that one in a million dog and I've been incredibly lucky, but this dog responds incredibly to positive reinforcement from me. So, using his personality, I was able to ff him by withholding praise/positive reinforcement. His 'pressure' - and need for relief thereof - was no positive reaction from me until he was steady and consistent. He has such a desire to please, it worked beautifully. Now, I know some will disagree and say there is no way he is ffd from this... However, there is no distinction between Cooper and my husband's dog with regard to ff. His dog was ffd by a pro-trainer using the standard method(s) of physical pressure/lack thereof - and further conditioned by e-collar. You truly see no differences...

I know I must seem really naive, but this dog is making it so easy for me... Other than the shaking, he meets all the challenges of each new step with amazing ease. I sometimes wonder if they will be a limit to what he can learn... I have to correct myself more than him! We just take it a step at a time and learn as a team. When he tries to 'cheat' (my term for when he chooses to be hard-headed or refusing to do it "my" way), I take a step back until he progresses without cheating. He's doing singles, doubles, even triples - in cover and not - following a good line. With every step/lesson taught, I go back over the previous stuff to reinforce.

Am I missing something? If he does all that he's asked/taught/instructed - does so consistently - and continues to prove himself by executing, is there something else I need to be doing??
 
#16 ·
Maybe he is that one in a million dog and I've been incredibly lucky, but this dog responds incredibly to positive reinforcement from me. So, using his personality, I was able to ff him by withholding praise/positive reinforcement. His 'pressure' - and need for relief thereof - was no positive reaction from me until he was steady and consistent. He has such a desire to please, it worked beautifully.
Well, there ya go!! Give him lots of praise as he is returning and stop praising when he drops to shake. You'll probably be "incredibly" surprised at how quickly this solves your problem. ;-)

Now, I know some will disagree and say there is no way he is ffd from this... However, there is no distinction between Cooper and my husband's dog with regard to ff. His dog was ffd by a pro-trainer using the standard method(s) of physical pressure/lack thereof - and further conditioned by e-collar. You truly see no differences...
So are you saying your husband's dog also drops his bird on the return??

Just askin'

Sarcasm aside, you've been given some good advice. Might want to consider it.

What are your goals for this dog?

JS
 
#10 ·
Am I missing something? If he does all that he's asked/taught/instructed - does so consistently - and continues to prove himself by executing, is there something else I need to be doing??
You might be missing something. I haven't seen you train and I haven't seen your dog. Usually, the place where the wheels will fall off an unforced dog will be on running blinds and obedience at a hunt test. Most unforced dog will cheat water and cover too, but some (many) are pretty good at marking. If he stays pretty obedient at a test and runs blinds taking your casts away from suction to the blind then you aren't missing much.
 
#11 ·
...I feel so wide-eyed and inexperienced...lol.... I really do appreciate the words of wisdom/advice!
 
#12 ·
Quick story:

Yesterday I threw a mark for my 13-month old dog in the neighbor's front yard and it landed right next to a ghost they have hanging in a tree for halloween. I sent the dog and she stopped about 20 yards short and looked at the ghost.

I said fetch and she went another 5 yards.

I said fetch again and she went the rest of the way and got the bumper and high-tailed it out of there.

She was not wearing an e-collar, but I think that is the kind of pressure/distraction that FF is supposed to help your dog work through.
 
#14 ·
Hmm...now I have an idea... I'm thinking instead of testing Cooper's ffd skills at a hunt test, I'll go to Wal-Mart and visit the Halloween isle! If he'll retrieve a bumper with a ghost hanging above it - we've got it made! LOL!

Seriously, that story is actually a compelling reason for me to go back and visit the ff issue with him. He took issue a little while back with a sign placed in the yard from the lawn guy/company.
 
#15 ·
Go for it...have fun....I will warn you this is more addictive than crack cocaine and a whole lot more expensive....
 
#17 ·
LOL... point made. No, husband's dog doesn't stop to shake.

My goals for the dog? I want him to reach his full potential, whatever that may be. However, I never want "my" desire to see him achieve certain levels outweigh "his" desire and enthusiam. He is a momma's boy, sleep-on-the-bed, rides in the backseat "pet". That said, he also has too much raw potential/skill/intelligence - along with an intense desire to learn - for me to just let him lay around the house and not see where it can take him. At the same time, I have found that I love working with him - teaching him new things - seeing what new step he and I can accomplish together.

Obviously, I don't think I will be the next greatest pro trainer to come along... lol... But I am serious about learning to train and wanting to be his trainer/handler.
 
#18 ·
Oh - and Bon M. - you're comment about being "addictive as crack cocaine.." has a WHOLE new meaning for me now! LOL! (Take a look at my today's post under 'Tips for the first timer in hunt test'. I share only because I am able to laugh at myself....!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top