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Thread: Long Distance Lining!!

  1. #11
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    "she runs like hell in a straight line, satisfied that I am firmly in the driver's seat. Strange dog!"
    Good Dog!!!! What must it be like to have one with that conviction?

    Kristie, what a great explanation! I think I heard most of it at one of your retreats, but didn't really have enough knowledge at the time to understand it. Now that I am "there" its crystal clear! Funny how that works.


    "Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?"

    Stephen, I like your questions. I have used a white bucket at the end of a long channel blind and it did help define "keep going to the end of the water" but did not repeat that more than once. What can we do to get the dog to look FAR in a featureless field? All that wide open space confuses him.


    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  2. #12
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    "she runs like hell in a straight line, satisfied that I am firmly in the driver's seat. Strange dog!"
    Good Dog!!!! What must it be like to have one with that conviction?

    Kristie, what a great explanation! I think I heard most of it at one of your retreats, but didn't really have enough knowledge at the time to understand it. Now that I am "there" its crystal clear! Funny how that works.


    "Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?"

    Stephen, I like your questions. I have used a white bucket at the end of a long channel blind and it did help define "keep going to the end of the water" but did not repeat that more than once. What can we do to get the dog to look FAR in a featureless field? All that wide open space confuses him.
    Thanks! Trust me..I have plenty of them!
    Stephen

  3. #13
    Senior Member Sundown49 aka Otey B's Avatar
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    Excellent post Khristie !!!!
    My Dad said to me ."Son, a man just needs three things to be happy....A good dog, a good gun and a good wife.....Thank God I have all three
    Sundown's Boss of Delta Marsh JH (Louie QAA X Delta MH)
    Traveling Through The Graded Timber JH (2012 NAFC Trav X Timber MH QAA)

    Sundown's Ruff And Tuff (Boss JH X Lil Bit) best pup I have ever raised
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder View Post
    No markers. The SHEA thing works partly because you've hopefully lined your dog up consistently on marks from the first time you ever sent them... So the dogs already have an understanding of "go as sent" when you start running blinds. The only thing is you add is the "back" and the fact that they didn't see anything fall... So they already have some building blocks to work on lines... based on what you've done on marks.

    -K
    Thanks for the explanation, Kristie. My dog has lots of momentum and for the last several weeks I have been using a quick whistle on his blinds. As soon as I see him veer off line just a little I have been stopping him. And he takes the cast well, and his blinds have improved a bunch over the course of probably 2 months. By your explanation it sounds like I need to stretch him out. And through repitition his lines should start to tighten up?
    Stephen

  5. #15
    Kristie Wilder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Whitley View Post
    Thanks for the explanation, Kristie. My dog has lots of momentum and for the last several weeks I have been using a quick whistle on his blinds. As soon as I see him veer off line just a little I have been stopping him. And he takes the cast well, and his blinds have improved a bunch over the course of probably 2 months. By your explanation it sounds like I need to stretch him out. And through repitition his lines should start to tighten up?
    Well, it depends on the dog... But, on early blinds, I want them to run as far as they can to the point JUST BEFORE I know I couldn't recover them to the blind. This is on very first blinds...

    Then YOU tighten up. You also have to look at WHY they are veering off line. We typically handle more quickly for lack of effort -- so if they are avoiding a factor then we would handle more quickly to make it clear. If they are just easing over offline, we might let them carry it a little longer (with a younger dog).

    This is where it becomes more of an art than a science. You have to read your dog, understand what speeds them up or slows them down... And try to maintain a good attitude while improving your dog's performance on blinds. If you find that you're stopping your dog frequently, then maybe you are being too fussy or running blinds that are too complicated for now.

    As you find your dog carries lines and casts longer then you can raise the standard for when you handle as well as add complexity to blinds...

    The "bad" thing about where you are in training right now is improvement is seen over more time than it has been in the past. When you're on double T for example, you see improvement in virtually every lesson. When you're working on blinds and lines, you'll see it over weeks and months and not every single day. So you have to have some patience and just keep plugging away. Your ability to read your dog and learn how to run them on blinds -- it's different with every dog -- will also take time. This is even for people who have run dozens of dogs. It takes a while to learn how much your dog can take as far as being stopped, or fussed with on the line, or pressure for refusals... Some dogs need more attrition, some do better with pressure... So that's what YOU are looking to learn here while your dog is learning to carry lines...

    -K

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Whitley View Post
    The dog needs to be able to pick a point out in the distance and run to it...okay. I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?
    I don't. Some dogs just have an innate sense of where youi want them to go. The steps Kristie outlined give the dogs the tools they need. But some dogs are just natutrally better. Gopher and her half-brother Rummy (both my dogs) both went through the same basics program. Gopher can't pick out her destination worth beans. Rummy, from the very first time we ever did a blind with him, leaned into it, lasered into his spot, and told me "I'm going THERE."

    It's interesting, each dog's conviction makes for completely different handling technique on line. Because Gopher is *miserable*, having no clue where she is supposed to go, I can't fiddle with her too much. I have to be really careful how I approach the line, so that when I stop, my foot is pointing *exactly* where I want her to go. No finger-snapping, leg-slapping, hand-waving; not even a hand down when I send. Just walk up to the line, say "dead bird" and kick her off.

    Rummy, OTOH, can get the conviction that he is going *there* and if his conviction is wrong, I can reposition him, tell him "no" push-pull to my heart's content, and he doesn't lose momentum. "I'm going THERE." "No (push-pull). Dead bird." "Oh, OK, I guess I'm going THERE instead."

    Given my druthers, I prefer #2. But #1 has taught me a LOT about dog training and handling! And no, 2tall, she is NOT a "good dog", LOL! But Mummy wuvvs her just the same.

    Lisa
    "Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here." - Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets

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  7. #17
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Whitley View Post
    ........
    I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?

    I don't, for the same reasons you cite.

    What I do though, later, after they are a little more accomplished and confident in running blinds is set up groups of blinds so they are all AT a landmark. Like a field with a bunch of small bushes or hay bales, etc ... I will put out 5 or 6 blinds, each one at a bale. After doing a few of these, when you point them toward an "object", they will begin to lock in on it.

    Then other times, I will run a group of blinds in the same fashion, but each going between the landmarks or objects. Likewise, they pick up pretty quickly the idea of running "up the slot".

    Maybe it's just my imagination, but I think it seems to help them get the idea of looking for and picking out a "target" and trying to figure out just where it is you want them to go.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

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    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    I don't, for the same reasons you cite.

    What I do though, later, after they are a little more accomplished and confident in running blinds is set up groups of blinds so they are all AT a landmark. Like a field with a bunch of small bushes or hay bales, etc ... I will put out 5 or 6 blinds, each one at a bale. After doing a few of these, when you point them toward an "object", they will begin to lock in on it.

    Then other times, I will run a group of blinds in the same fashion, but each going between the landmarks or objects. Likewise, they pick up pretty quickly the idea of running "up the slot".

    Maybe it's just my imagination, but I think it seems to help them get the idea of looking for and picking out a "target" and trying to figure out just where it is you want them to go.

    JS
    There ya go.

    You want to be able to line up a dog and have them pick a "destination point", when running your early, "no factor blinds." You just want the dog to run, keep it's head up and get the muscle memory of running straight. Always run more then one blind. A dog will always get better in a training session with blinds, the more blinds it runs, with the same concept.

    Angie

  9. #19
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    And, I forgot to add .... keep it balanced!

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  10. #20
    Kristie Wilder
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    This brings up a good point...

    I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.

    -K

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