The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 49

Thread: Long Distance Lining!!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Not far from Hog Hollow
    Posts
    1,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder View Post
    This brings up a good point...

    I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.

    -K

    Yes, this is what really cements the blind-running concept into place. I am weird, I admit, but I really, REALLY love this part of training a young dog. As I move from one concept blind to the next in a training session, I can see that youngster learning right in front of my eyes! It is the greatest feeling. And things they learn in these blinds readily translate over to marks.

    I have a young bitch right now who is going to be running a lot of concept blinds over the winter. She is a lot of fun, and I am really looking forward to it.

    Lisa
    "Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here." - Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets

    http://www.chessieinfo.net

  2. #32
    Senior Member Judy Chute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Falmouth, Maine
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labman63 View Post
    Threads like this is why I look at this site everyday. Great job everyone.
    ....great thread......... Thank you, Stephen Whiteley!!


    Judy (..are you related to Andy Whiteley?)
    Last edited by Judy Chute; 10-15-2008 at 09:12 AM.

  3. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    DINGERTOBE!!!!


    Are You readin this???

    Fer the rest of you,, Dinger took Gooser under his wing,, and is tryin to teach him sumpin!!

    This thread is a topic of dailey "DISCUSSION" for us!

    Thanks all !!!

    Gooser

    Gooser

    Okay you got me on here. I agree with Kristie in every respect, but I am thinking that you already knew that. Now if I can just get you to relax a little. I do not want to spoil your RTF image though!!

    Art

  4. #34
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Bayboro, NC
    Posts
    945

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Chute View Post
    ....great thread......... Thank you, Stephen Whiteley!!


    Judy (..are you related to Andy Whiteley?)
    No, and actuallly my last name is Whitley...one "e"! You're not the first to make that mistake! And you're wlecome! That's one good question in two years!!
    Stephen

  5. #35
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    6,974

    Default

    Dinger has been trying to help me controll myself at the line,, and have the dog and myself somewhat relaxed BEFORE we run.

    I have to say it has made a noticible difference on how the dog runs.

    Much more confident and deliberate.

    She seems to be more co-operative and willing to work as a team.

    He also has shown me what LONG blinds are!

    What I called long blinds arnt even respectable lenght!!
    A topic I am WAY to familiar with!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #36
    Senior Member Miriam Wade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    3,442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder View Post
    This brings up a good point...

    I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.

    -K
    I have a question for Kristie or anyone. When setting up these blinds w/ increasing difficulty-let's say the dog has done very well on the first couple of blinds-fighting factors, handling well, etc. Dog runs the last-everything but the kitchen sink blind & has a lot of difficulty. Do you still end with that blind? Is there any disadvantage to ending with a blind where the dog may have really struggled or is that where the next day you come out & repeat the concept (not the same blind) & see if he learned from the struggle the day before?

    Thanks-

    M
    "You can put pressure on a dog, you canít take it backÖ"

    Mitch Patterson '07

    MHR Wadin's Katie Lied CD, SH, WCX (11/25/93-1/27/07 Rest Well Kate)
    Brassfire's Brass in Pocket JH, WCX ** (4 Master passes)
    Brassfire's New England Patriot (New Pup!!!)

  7. #37
    Senior Member Judy Chute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Falmouth, Maine
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    ...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Stephen Whitley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Bayboro, NC
    Posts
    945

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Chute View Post
    ...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?
    I may be doing things wrong, but if I had intentions of running the most difficult blind last and we screwed it up then I would do another blind that was easier. Maybe it wouldn't be the first/easiest one, but one that took out a factor or two. Or maybe run the hard one again from closer up taking out a factor that way. I hate ending anything on a bad note whether it be with my dog or my football team.
    Stephen

  9. #39
    Kristie Wilder
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Miriam Wade View Post
    I have a question for Kristie or anyone. When setting up these blinds w/ increasing difficulty-let's say the dog has done very well on the first couple of blinds-fighting factors, handling well, etc. Dog runs the last-everything but the kitchen sink blind & has a lot of difficulty. Do you still end with that blind? Is there any disadvantage to ending with a blind where the dog may have really struggled or is that where the next day you come out & repeat the concept (not the same blind) & see if he learned from the struggle the day before?

    Thanks-

    M
    We don't normally run an "everything but the kitchen sink blind"... There ARE plenty of threepeats with multiple factors in them, but I never set them up to where they are OVERWHELMING. I would never set a up blind that has a long angle entry, over a log 50 yards out, down the shore and into a gusting wind, up and out then through a pothole of water, then into a cheaty strip of cover, angle up a hill... blah blah blah. YES, you'll see those a trial. But training, that is too much on a threepeat. You DO want to set your factors up in CONCERT... For example, if we want an angle entry into some heavy cover, we aren't going to do it with a wind that pushes them in so it LOOKS like they took the angle entry. We want them to fight BOTH the wind AND the cover IF THEY ARE READY FOR IT... OR we find somewhere to put the wind at our back and work on JUST the cover. OR find somewhere to work on crosswind blinds where we do not have to worry about angles into cover...

    SOOOOOO.... We set up blinds to work on concepts the dogs are learning in a format that makes sense for WHERE THEY ARE AT. We make the angles stronger or softer, we set the wind up to be slight or heavy, we enter the water in a difficult manner or with just a little bit of challenge... Again, it goes back to reading and understanding your dog.

    IF you set them up right and IF your dog is ready for what you offer when you set up blinds this way... It's very rare for them to just fall apart on the third blind UNLESS they were starting to fall apart on the previous ones. This indicates one of two things: 1) they don't understand what you're asking and/or you're asking too much or 2) they are refusing what you're asking even though they're fully capable. In the case of #1, maybe you challenged them too much and you need to set up a similar concept with a little less difficulty. In the case of #2, maybe they are just jerks... Thankfully #2 doesn't happen very often.

    If they completely blow it on the 3rd after doing the first two nicely, I would "make book" (one of my favorite quotes from Mike Lardy workshop) and go at it another day. It's just not normal or common for this to happen on threepeats...

    NOW... Threepeats goes back to even when they are puppies... We do little sets of walking singles in a semi-circle, for example. Or we run three marks that each go through a little wall of cover or over a ditch. Again, this is something the dogs already understand in an abstract sense. They've seen it before in a different format. They get the repetition. And if YOU do a good job reinforcing (through attrition or pressure and just good communication) what you're looking for in the blinds, you will 99% of the time see IMPROVED PERFORMANCE on each one.

    I would be confused if I saw things go down the drain at the end of a threepeat... If the dog STRUGGLED a lot on the first two and was tired... Maybe, but again that probably means it was too much to start with...

    -K

  10. #40
    Kristie Wilder
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Chute View Post
    ...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?
    I very rarely run a short blind after a long one. The point is that each blind challenges the dog more on something it's already understanding. the dog should NOT be overwhelmed with it. The dog should be saying "hey, I get it, this is no big deal, I saw it 2-3 times before, it makes sense now, no problem"...

    There is no benefit to a shorter blind. Or a "celebration blind" or a "relaxation blind"...

    Dogs should not see blinds as "long" or "short"... They should set up and be thinking (again, my dog is talking to me, LOL) "ok, I'm going to run as hard and fast in that direction as I can until I step on a bird". There is no point to running blinds any other way. It's that simple...

    So I don't feel a shorter blind would accomplish anything. If you do them right and set them up intelligently (which often takes some brainpower!!), they are not overwhelming or demanding. It's just that you're requiring a little more effort out of the dog each time.

    I guess it's like conditioning a runner or even our dogs. We start out with a little and keep building. This time, you enter the water slightly more than square... Next time you take a little more angle, next time a little more angle...

    It's incremental. And it does NOT mean the last blind is a MONSTER blind. It just means that it's MORE than the blind before it. So I hope I didn't make it sound like that last blind is always a killer. IT IS NOT. It just requires more effort on the dog's part than the previous blinds.

    Sometimes multiple blinds are very straightforward... Slot blinds, for example. Maybe we'll take the older dogs out and run a set of slot blinds. And each one requires them to angle towards the slot at a sharper angle... But that's all there is to it. Otherwise, it's short cover and no wind or anything else.... The last blind might just enter a slot at 150 yards away versus the first blind going through a set of trees at 60 yards...

    So the last blind is NOT always a killer. It's just more difficult than the ones before... And these should never be set up to overwhelm or severelly challenge your dog. They are just to teach and maintain the textbook concepts we all want our dogs to know -- in a manner that makes sense for YOUR dog on THAT training day in THAT field or at THAT pond...

    -K

Similar Threads

  1. Casting distance/E-Collar
    By bubba102105 in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-09-2009, 01:33 PM
  2. Distance between HT
    By Ken Newcomb in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-01-2009, 10:29 AM
  3. Conflicting Field Trials - Distance
    By Ted Shih in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-06-2008, 11:58 AM
  4. Puppy Mark Distance
    By DMA in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-07-2008, 09:39 AM
  5. Poll... What distance??
    By Ed Hogan in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-05-2007, 05:17 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •