Interesting ..the Islamic way of war.

[K.Bullock]

Are you talking about the calls to prayer from the mosques or the calls to prayer from the Christian radio stations?

I'm not accusing you of being anti-Muslim per se, but I do think your understanding of the the Muslim religion is incomplete. All of our religions include elements that do not fit in today's world and/or that are subject to interpretation to support peace or war. In my experience, Islam is no more or less war like than Christianity. The good or evil comes from the hearts of the "believers" not the Koran or the Bible.

Would it be fair then if we must put it in Christian/ Muslim terms to compare the Life of the Prophet Mohammed to the life of Jesus? Outrageous claims aside. Just the historical figures. I don't think you will have to go too far to see the very dissimilar world view.

I'm not accusing you of being anti-Muslim per se,

Per se is correct. I am trying not to go there. I recognize that all Muslims are not sold out to Wahhabi style Islam. but it is growing and they are not leaving even peaceful believers much of a choice.

There is a very progressive mosque here in Toledo, Ohio that has actually elected a woman president. Which drove the zealots nuts, there is quite a power struggle going on. I don't know of any mosque that is that progressive.

[K.Bullock]

All of our religions include elements that do not fit in today's world and/or that are subject to interpretation to support peace or war

The eastern religions do not, but that does not stop them from slaughtering people. Per the headlines coming out of India.

And I think Tao fits quite nicely ..in my context it is missing Jesus though.

[John Kelder]

O K boys and girls , put on your thinking caps . Or enable your dream r.e.m.s . IMHO here is history repeating itself .
When America was "discovered" around 1492, it was already inhabited by a thriving civilization , with different sub cultures from sea to shining sea .The newcomers first embraced the natives , IMO ,mostly to survive the Natives .
Systematically ,slowly but surely ,the embrace became a death grip , and the Natives were soon fighting for their survival on all fronts , from the Great Plains to the politicians on the Potomac .Thru pen and sword ,the newcomers were now the natives .
I think the current situation is simular ,albiet with a learning curve that the newcomers learned from a previous civilization ,and realized to become the new natives ,a friend on the Potomac is a must .
And slowly , will historians compare the church bell to the buffalo ?

[YardleyLabs]

O K boys and girls , put on your thinking caps . Or enable your dream r.e.m.s . IMHO here is history repeating itself .
When America was "discovered" around 1492, it was already inhabited by a thriving civilization , with different sub cultures from sea to shining sea .The newcomers first embraced the natives , IMO ,mostly to survive the Natives .
Systematically ,slowly but surely ,the embrace became a death grip , and the Natives were soon fighting for their survival on all fronts , from the Great Plains to the politicians on the Potomac .Thru pen and sword ,the newcomers were now the natives .
I think the current situation is simular ,albiet with a learning curve that the newcomers learned from a previous civilization ,and realized to become the new natives ,a friend on the Potomac is a must .
And slowly , will historians compare the church bell to the buffalo ?

Your fears are not new. In the late 19th century we feared the "Yellow Peril" of Chinese immigrants that we believed would mongrelize and destroy our culture. Before and after we feared the same from blacks. Then we feared the Irish and the Italians, sure that they too would destroy our culture and sell our souls to the Pope. I think your fears belong in the same garbage can with those earlier ones. I have a number of arabs in my extended family (Iraquis even). My brother in law is an engineer who has now been here 35 years. He took his American bride back to Iraq and wasn't able to escape for another two years with my sister-in-law and niece. He since managed to bring his whole family to the U.S. where they have been trying to subvert our culture ever since by celebrating thanksgiving, watching football, going to work, giving to charities, sending their children to college, buying and selling homes, etc.



Yellow Peril regards,

[K.Bullock]

Your fears are not new. In the late 19th century we feared the "Yellow Peril" of Chinese immigrants that we believed would mongrelize and destroy our culture. Before and after we feared the same from blacks. Then we feared the Irish and the Italians, sure that they too would destroy our culture and sell our souls to the Pope. I think your fears belong in the same garbage can with those earlier ones. I have a number of arabs in my extended family (Iraquis even). My brother in law is an engineer who has now been here 35 years. He took his American bride back to Iraq and wasn't able to escape for another two years with my sister-in-law and niece. He since managed to bring his whole family to the U.S. where they have been trying to subvert our culture ever since by celebrating thanksgiving, watching football, going to work, giving to charities, sending their children to college, buying and selling homes, etc.



Yellow Peril regards,

It is not a simple as race or nationality . http://www.islamfortoday.com/america04.htm

The same approach was taken in other countries as is being taken here*edit (the same apathy towards extremism for fear of seeming insensitive) end edit*. Now very recently England has banned extremist preachers from their island. Too little too late. Can Muslims and other societies live in peace. Look the globe over and see for yourself it doesn't seem likely. Though I believe it is possible, but not if we deny the extremist doctrines that poison Islam, and stick our nations collective head in the sand.

I also believe we can defend against extremism without resorting to fear of the "Yellow Peril". And keep our heritage intact to boot.

Jeff, though I am debating with you I am reflecting on what you write. You are making some very good points and giving me something to think about. So don't think I am dismissing your thoughts and not giving them any weight.

That said, I am still going to debate you .

[Keith Farmer]

I know of only one religion that has been more violent in its pursuit of new converts than Islam -- Christianity. Over the last 2,000 years, Christians have burned, pillaged and raped their way to dominance. They have destroyed culture after culture -- most in this hemisphere -- to promote the glory of God.

I hear this all the time from people who really have no clue what church history is. I believe the mistake in the statement above is the confusion between true Christianity, as was started by Jesus the Christ (who was, is, and forever will be God who robed Himself in human flesh to redeem mankind from his fallen state), and Roman Catholicism masquerading its efforts at world dominance as Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Christianity is all about a God who did not require (nor still requires) someone else pay the penalty for sin so that man could be reconciled to Himself...rather He Himself laid down His own life so that mankind could be saved:

Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above..." John 19:10, 11

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:6,7

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,..."1 Cor. 15: 3,4


In terms of Islam I suggest one read the writings, or go hear personally, someone who has removed himself from the religion and get the real story...such as:

http://www.erguncaner.com/home/biography/default.php


KF

[K.Bullock]

[COLOR=navy]I hear this all the time from people who really have no clue what church history is.

We should have stuck to politics

I believe the mistake in the statement above is the confusion between true Christianity, as was started by Jesus the Christ (who was, is, and forever will be God who robed Himself in human flesh to redeem mankind from his fallen state), and Roman Catholicism masquerading its efforts at world dominance as Christianity.

If you think Jesus started Christianity you are in agreement with the Catholic church. "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell won't stand against it". (that's paraphrased btw
Catholics claim Peter as the first Pope. that is what they base Apostolic succession off of.

Notice also there are no Christians in the bible. Jesus didn't start Christianity ..Christians did. That's why it screws up now and then. Humility is not a bad goal for a Christian, seeing as how our God was born in a Pig sty and didn't seem to mind.

And as was pointed out by Jeff in his reply to Pete the Nicene creed which you base your doctrine for the trinity off of is also Catholic...Notice no reference to Trinity in the bible.

Nope I am not Catholic, I can't get with the Marian doctrines although they are interesting. But they are as Christian as they come and to say they are not is to deny your own faith.

Church history is good thing, I get lost in it sometimes though and forget I am supposed to be living it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Christianity is all about a God who did not require (nor still requires) someone else pay the penalty for sin so that man could be reconciled to Himself...rather He Himself laid down His own life so that mankind could be saved:

Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above..." John 19:10, 11

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:6,7

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,..."1 Cor. 15: 3,4


In terms of Islam I suggest one read the writings, or go hear personally, someone who has removed himself from the religion and get the real story...such as:

http://www.erguncaner.com/home/biography/default.php


KF

[YardleyLabs]

I am actually not prepared to discuss the intrinsic merits of one religion over another. Ultimately, each individual must reach for his or her own beliefs. My concern is with how our government embraces a multi-religious, multi-racial, and multi-cultural society. This is not a new problem in our country, it was an essential component of our country from the days of its foundation.

I agree that to preserve our social structure that we must protect ourselves from those who would exchange our freedoms to create a government and society that conforms more closely to their religious beliefs. However, this is not just an issue with Islamic fundamentalists. We are threatened much more immediately by some Christian fundamentalists who believe that our country was founded as a Christian country and want our government to be more proactive in protecting our Christian character.

I read the Establishment clause of the Constitution as aggressively as others on this forum read the second amendment. The only way to protect religious freedom (and non-religious freedom) is to prevent the mechanisms of our government from becoming entangled with any particular religious "ism". Violations of that boundary not only violate the inalienable rights of those with different beliefs, they ultimately corrupt the message of those permitting themselves to become entangled with the government. For an example, look at how churches must censor their own messages to preserve tax exemption. Maybe the right answer is to give up tax exemption altogether.

As individuals we make moral judgments all the time. However, it is incumbent on us to recognize that opinions on morality belong to men regardless of their claimed source. Government must handle those opinions even-handedly and not make any decisions that discriminate based on the particulars of one religion or non-religion vs. another. Going back to the original point of this thread, that would mean regulating both church bells and Muslim calls to prayer in an even handed way: time of day, noise level, etc. Hiding religious bias behind phrases like “cultural traditions” does not change the fact that the bias is a religious one.

[John Kelder]

Your fears are not new. In the late 19th century we feared the "Yellow Peril" of Chinese immigrants that we believed would mongrelize and destroy our culture. Before and after we feared the same from blacks. Then we feared the Irish and the Italians, sure that they too would destroy our culture and sell our souls to the Pope. I think your fears belong in the same garbage can with those earlier ones. I have a number of arabs in my extended family (Iraquis even). My brother in law is an engineer who has now been here 35 years. He took his American bride back to Iraq and wasn't able to escape for another two years with my sister-in-law and niece. He since managed to bring his whole family to the U.S. where they have been trying to subvert our culture ever since by celebrating thanksgiving, watching football, going to work, giving to charities, sending their children to college, buying and selling homes, etc.



Yellow Peril regards,

Where do you get off thinking my observations put me in fear ?" I can ride ,rope ,hammer and paint , do things with my hands that most men can't" so the song goes .
FYI , I tried to reenlist in the USMC right after 9/11 . Wouldn't take me , I was over the age limit .But fear ? Hell , I was just saying , without saying it , that history repeats itself .Which your post proved .
Some might be in fear , I just look forward to killing them all ,and letting God sort them out.

[Pete]

OK So since we opened our arms up to the muslim population and plan on giving many of them a free 1 way ticket to america,,should we also let their culture thrive as part of a free america which I think is governed by certain rules and regulations. Should they be alowed to practice their religion unhibited by a government which is seperated from religion

From what I have read culture ,politics and religion are rolled up in 1.


Case in point
Muslum man in texas kills daughter.for relations with american boy.
Should he be praised or thrown in jail.? Or should he be praised in jail.

Also radical islamm is a religion

Let the hypocrocy begin

Pete